五千年(敝帚自珍)

主题:【原创】世界名枪(1) -- 纸老虎

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                • 家园 “现在的塑料,很少有纯粹的塑料,都是带有添料的复合材料”

                  还有这事?不瞒你说,我就是干塑料行当的,造了十几年塑料,还不知道造的结果都是复合材料。你是指塑料添加剂吗?那可不符合复合材料的定义,那东西是融化在塑料里面的,在量上和“主体”也不成比例。没有听说因此而塑料就成为复合材料的说法。

        • 家园 AK和M16

          枪支重量在战场上是大问题。重量重等于单兵带弹量就小。差出一两公斤,那是几百发子弹,要命的问题。重量轻,士兵能走的路也多—我出去打猎,第一拿的就是轻的枪,因为出去一走就是一天,多了一两公斤的重量,那可是真要命。战场上很少有拿枪对砸的事情,就算打起来,M16有3公斤,3公斤的金属块砸谁能受的了?

          AK流行的根本原因是造价低廉,再加上老毛子全世界白送。后来美帝国主义也到处白送,弄的M16也流行起来。象其他的好枪,比如SIG 55X和FN FAL,生产商到处向别人要专利费,那能流行的起来吗?

          AK比M16不容易出毛病是因为配件精度差,所配件之间所预留的空间大—这是用牺牲射击准确性换取可靠性。当然也使得维护容易—拿水冲就行了。

          AK照样出毛病,并不比现代M16好多少。从设计角度看,工艺水平一样的AK和M16,AK有可能会更可靠,但是现在缺乏这方面的研究。

          AK的7.62子弹的确比5.56的穿透性好。

          M16只有枪托和枪柄是用复合材料做的,想换成金属或者木头的也行。其他部分和AK一样,是金属的。只不过由于设计不同,M16可以大量使用铝合金,所以重量轻。

          • 家园 但是根据作战效能来看,.223口径的要比.30得好一些

            小口径弹头击中人体后会破裂,造成更大空腔,所以对于无装甲目标来说小口径是更好选择,而且正如您所说的.30质量要比.223弹大很多,所以.223作战持续性要好很多

            这也是为什么美国研制出来6.8也不大量装备部队,而本身采用7.62华约口径的国家有能力的都要转向北约5.56口径或者华约5.45口径的原因(中国特例)

          • 家园 AK的活塞导气原理比M16的直接导气原理更加可靠

            和制造精度无关。HK416可以看成导气活塞版的M16,现在Delta就用它,就是看中它可靠。

            点看全图

            外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

            HK416,外观和M16很有几分相像,但这是用导气活塞原理的

            • 家园 里面还是有改进

              外链出处

              HK的东西缺点就是太贵……

            • 家园 【文摘】HK. Because you suck.

              An open letter to the gun community from HK’s marketing department: In a world of compromises, some people put the bullets in the magazine backwards…But it doesn’t matter, because our gun is on the cover of the Rainbow Six video games. Look how cool that SEAL coming out of the water looks… If you buy a $2,000 SOCOM, you will be that cool of an operator too. And chicks will dig you.

              At HK, we stuck a piston on an AR15, just like a bunch of other companies have done, dating back to about 1969. However ours is better, because we refuse to sell it to civilians. Because you suck, and we hate you.

              Our XM8 is the greatest rifle ever developed. It may melt, and it doesn’t fit any accessories known to man, but that is your fault. If you were a real operator, you would love it. Once again, look at Rainbow Six, that G36 sure is cool isn’t it? Yeah, you know you want one.And by the way, check out our new HK45. We decided that humans don’t need to release the magazine with their thumbs. If you were a really manly teutonic operator, you would be able to reach the controls. Plus we’ve fired 100,000,000 rounds through one with zero malfunctions, and that was while it was buried in a lake of molten lava, on the moon. If you don’t believe us, it is because you aren’t a real operator.

              By the way, our cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns like the G3 and MP5 are the bestest things ever, and totally worth asinine scalpers prices, but note that cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns from other countries are commie garbage. Not that it matters, because you’re civilians, so we won’t sell them to you anyway. Because you suck, and we hate you, but we know you’ll be back. We can beat you down like a trailer park wife, but you’ll come back, you always do.

              Buy our stuff.

              Sincerely

              HK Marketing DepartmentHK. Because you suck. And we hate you.

              Now the G3 is a decent rifle. It is a cheap, stamped sheet metal, battle rifle. It has terrible ergonomics, with a hard to use safety, (and this is coming from a guy with gorilla hands), and difficult to use charging handle. It is reliable, because of the roller locking bolt that destroys your brass, and recoils worse than other competing .308 rifles. The FAL smokes the G3, and the only reason the G3 exists is because the Germans were too proud to pay royalties to those uppity Belgians.

              The G3 can be really accurate, if you weld a bunch of metal to the sides of it, stick on a nice barrel, and jack the price up $10,000. And no, that’s not a typo. The PSG1 is absurdly priced, and the cheaper version, the MSG90 is proof that if make anything absurdly heavy enough, it can be accurate.

              There is a collapsible stock available, which is awesome, if you like getting hit in the face with a piece of rebar, which is what their $400 stock feels like when you shoot it. Germans must be tougher than we are or something.

              Other stamped, sheet metal guns exist, but HK fan boys mock those as commie garbage. See, if you build a cheap gun, but it is from Germany, then it is superior, but if you build a stamped gun in the eastern block (a hundred miles from Germany) then it is commie garbage.

              But what brought HK to international fame and the cover of Dick Marcinko books (for example, Rogue Force Delta Green Team 7 Ninja Force Alpha II: The beginning) was the G3s little brother, the MP5. Take a G3, shrink it, and chamber it in 9mm. At the time, CQB doctrine was to use 9mm subguns. Now the MP5 is a neat little gun. I have two. They work well, and if compared to the other subguns of the day, like the Uzi or the Mac, then the MP5 was a lot easier to use, easier to hit with, and was decently reliable.

              The MP5 became famous when the SAS used them to kick the living hell out of some bad guys at the Iranian embassy. This was marketing gold, and HK rode the wave. Pretty soon everybody wanted an MP5. It was what all the cool kids were using. Soon every video game and action movie was filled with HK stuff. HK may have overrated guns, but they’ve got the best marketing department in the gun business, and they milked that fee cow until it was dry.

              But the MP5 isn’t as great as people make them out to be. They still malfunction. (if you’re favorite gun hasn’t malfed, you haven’t shot it enough). The mags are hard to insert on a closed bolt. Safety still sucks. Most versions don’t have a bolt hold open. Honestly, if I had to get into a gunfight with a subgun, then I would rather have my PPsH.

              Read up about the XM8 on most gun boards. According to the interweb, the XM8 is the finest combat implement of all time. In actuality it is a plastic AR18, that tends to melt, break, and is universally loathed by the Army staff that had to test it. It takes bizarre attachments, so no US accessories will work. They took the G36, which is basically a blah rifle, used by a handful of countries that don’t ever actually shoot people, and uglied it up so that it looks like the demented lovechild of Bloaty the Pizza Hog and a Super-Soaker.

              Or the HK416. According to the internet, the HK416 is the best gun EVER! It is called THE AWESOME. Lightning bolts of coolness fly from the gun and smite your enemies with Teutonic fury! However you can’t have one, because you’re a civilian, ergo, you suck. And HK hates you.

              The 416 is basically an AR with a gas piston, which has been done by like ten companies now, but somehow the HK is better, because it was on Future Weapons, and HK won’t sell it to civilians. In fact, a couple of 416s slipped out into civilian hands, and HK freaked out about it. There is no legal reason that 416 uppers can’t be sold, but HK despises regular people, and the idea of you having their long guns offends them.

              HK’s new subgun is the UMP. They tend to break. One of our local PDs traded all of theirs in after they broke all the stocks. Cool idea, because everybody loves .45, but bad execution.

              HK’s flagship pistols, the USP line, are decent polymer handguns. They are extremely reliable, that is the plus side. On the down side, their triggers universally suck, but they don’t have to. HK likes to use a square peg in a round hole, (literally) that makes the trigger pull a lot heavier and grittier than it needs to be. Why? Beats the heck out of me. The USP series should be reliable, they’re enormous.

              The most annoying thing about the HK pistols is how they cost almost twice as much as every other polymer handgun on the market. Somehow being made in Germany means the USP series is worth $800-$1000, when all of the polymer guns made within a thousand miles are $400-$600. Only most of those guns tend to have better triggers, are just as reliable, and are usually more accurate.

              They are reliable, but so is a $125 Makarov. Only the Mak has a better trigger.

              One friend of mine took his personal MP5, and cut an extra notch into the collapsible stock, so it would be shorter for when he was wearing his armor, and also it removed the nasty wobble that all HK collapsible stocks have. It is an easy fix, and a no-brainer that the HK should have been doing for years. Fritz at the armorer’s school damn near had an aneurism when he saw this blasphemy against his ineffectual German gods.

              Look, gun owning public, just because you saw it on Future Weapons, or read about it on the internet, doesn’t make it true. For the love of John Moses Browning, before you formulate super strong opinions about a weapon, you should have at least shot the damn thing first.

              Do I have anything positive to say about HK? Yes, the sneer of disdain they give you at SHOT is priceless and entertaining.

            • 家园 HK416和M16

              导气活塞是超过半个世纪的老技术,没什么新鲜的。HK搞的这个416更是拾人牙慧,从几十年前,几乎美国每一个AR15的生产商包括COLT都有一个类似的产品,一点新鲜的都没有。美国陆军对这个设计早就做过很多次测试,最终还是没花那个钱买。

              不过人家HK很会做广告搞公关。HK拉的屎都能被他们说的比金子好,所以HK416也被美国某些利欲熏心的评论员誉为成了美国军队的救世主,好像美军现在是用烧火棍和人打仗,让美军继续用M16是对美国人民最大的不负责,简直就是天人共愤,天理不容一样。

              美国的DELTA赶时髦,又不用经过军队的统一采购系统,想买什么就买什么。要说HK416比M16更好,那就不够负责任。HK416跟本没有经过实战,怎么能和有40年发展,更新,实战历史的AR15(M16)比呢?

              也许它真的是好,但是在没有做出大规模的比较之前,这么说,并不合适。

              • 家园 工作原理不新鲜不等于不好

                车辆轮子是圆的,有好几千年了吧,不新鲜吧,不依旧是最好的形状?反过来说,M16之后,就没有第二支直接导气的枪,至少没有大批生产的,连斯通纳自己后来射击的斯通纳63都是导气活塞的,其中道理不难明白吧?

                看来你是M16的铁杆粉丝,这没有什么,M16的铁杆粉丝多得很。不过美国陆军不用HK416可不是因为它不如M16,而是性能的提高不值得花那么大的代价。这倒不是HK416比M16贵多少,HK416的枪管和机匣上半部是新的,下半部和枪托可以直接用M16的,以减少成本。但陆军要把M16更换成HK416,需要更换全套后勤保障体系和训练,事情远比换一支枪那么简单。

                至于Delta,他们玩枪可比陆军强太多。Black Hawk Down的书里说的很多,摩加迪沙的Rangers看他们玩枪和field craft都看呆了,也学了不少东西。有意思的是,Delta不全是军职人员,有些人不是军人,是civilian。Black Hawk Down里一个主要的Delta小队队长就是civilian,他也是美国特种部队的传奇、Delta的创始人Charles Beckwith上校的女婿,名字一下子记不起来了,H打头的。

                至于Delta是不是有能力辨别HK416更好,枪对于他们来说可是生命。陆军可以随时招呼空中火力或者炮火,Delta很多时间可是叫天天不应叫地地不灵的,就靠手里这杆枪了。可靠性对他们是绝对重要。HK416也是经过严格测试后才采用的。

                “HK416跟本没有经过实战,怎么能和有40年发展,更新,实战历史的AR15(M16)比呢?”

                你上面不还说“导气活塞是超过半个世纪的老技术,没什么新鲜的”,怎么又没有经过考验呢?HK连别人那里经过考验的技术拿来用都没有本事了吗?

                至于M16和AK47的可靠性,到90年代,一般人认为M16在越战时期的早期可靠性问题都已经解决了,M16已经和AK47一样可靠,其精度高的优点当然一直保留下来了。但是在第一次伊拉克战争中,女兵林奇和她的战友们的运输车队遭到伏击,手中的M16被沙子卡住了,打不响,她被俘(是美军历史上唯一被俘的女性战斗人员?),另一个女战友手中的M16同样打不响,但她运气不好,送了命。怎么送的命呢?就是伊拉克人手里依然打得欢的AK47。精度多高没有关系,能打中、打死就是好枪。战后伊拉克军重建,他们没有要现成的M16,而是回到AK47。本来中国造的AK47最便宜,但美国国会是在看着堵心,下令用罗马尼亚造的了。这是题外话了。

                我也写过一篇M16 vs AK47的文章,晨枫:【原创】东风与西风(一),附上供一笑。

                • 家园 【讨论】导气活塞

                  我并没有说导气活塞不好啊。

                  我只是说这是别人的牙慧,老技术了,怎么到了HK手里就变成杀手锏了?玩导气活塞的在美国有十几家厂子,都比HK早不知道多少年,怎么到了HK手里就成了创新了?DELTA真想要导气活塞的AR15,早10几年就可以买到了,干嘛非今天赶HK这个时髦?

                  导气活塞是老技术,但是往AR15上加个导气活塞,并不表明可靠性就一定能提高。往往各人设计不同,HK的导气活塞和COLT的导气活塞就会不一样。所以HK416要经过战场检验才行。

                  再说了,导气活塞要解决的问题不是沙子卡枪,而是枪匣过热和高温肮脏的气体进入枪匣的问题。从设计角度看,有了导气活塞,沙子卡枪的问题反而会更严重—因为多了几个活动件,卡枪的机率增加很多。

                  别忘了,AK47组装精度很差,零件之间的缝隙非常大,这是它在沙地里更可靠的根本原因,而不是什么导气活塞。

                  我并不是AR15的FAN。其实每次去打枪,我都不爱用AR15,因为回来后清理起来很麻烦,远不如SIG556。但是如果出去打猎,我肯定会带AR15,因为它轻巧。

                  • 家园 AR15还有导气活塞版?谁家造的?

                    这还是第一次听说呢。

                    枪这个东西,真正新鲜的已经没有多少东西了,大家都在拾大家的牙慧,看谁拾得高明了。导气活塞谈不上杀手锏,但Delta就是放弃了熟悉的M4,改用HK416了。HK416除了在试验场上检验外,现在正在受到战场检验,而且是Delta的人的搏命检验。

                    你老是把AK的可靠性归结于零件公差大,就是不肯承认导气活塞比直接导气可靠。直接导气不是没有活塞,而是活塞在枪的后面,所以直接导气有两个地方可能被沙子卡住:导管和活塞。导气活塞只有一个地方可能被卡住:活塞。相比之下,导气活塞大,被卡住的可能性比导管被沙子堵住的可能性要低。再加导气活塞没有火药气体积淀和冷凝的问题,你说谁的可靠性更高呢?

                    在小口径时代,北约中自己设计枪的国家中,除了美国,没有一家采用直接导气,毫无例外全部是导气活塞。这不是他们不喜欢直接导气的精度,而是更不喜欢直接导气的可靠性不足。

                    带AR15打猎,只能打小动物吧?最多打鹿?打熊或者野猪会不会威力不足?

                    • 家园 【讨论】卡枪

                      呵呵,你知道沙子卡枪都卡在哪里吗?

                      怎么导气和制造组装精度可是完全两码儿事儿,你怎么混一起说了?

                      • 家园 好啊,那你来说说

                        “你知道沙子卡枪都卡在哪里吗”

                        怎么导气和制造组装精度当然是两回事,但怎么导气在原理上就可以造成低可靠性,这有什么问题吗?

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