主题:最近在看本抗日的书。 -- johny

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      • 家园 希望温兄早点把这篇写完。

        我也想看看温兄在这件事上的看法。共同切磋,呵呵。

        等待中...

        • 家园 很长时间没有和J兄聊聊了:

          这次看到你写的唐生智,我很高兴,终于有了一个咱哥俩聊天的热点了,于是,就准备写一个东西出来。呵呵

      • 家园 我是觉得奇怪

        老蒋也没逼着老唐出来打这一仗,他吃饱了撑得自己跳出来啊?既然出了山就好好干,怎么关键时刻又掉链子了?

        温相快点写,等着解惑。

        • 家园 一起探讨:

          唐生智兄弟算是民国以来的风云人物,他们身上的故事很多,值得聊聊。

        • 家园 我看的书上是这样写的。

          因以前军阀混战中起兵反蒋之故,唐赋闲已久,故想借机重掌兵权。

          结果画虎不成反类犬。

          唐的真实想法很难知道了。

          但无论如何,临阵脱逃是个巨大的耻辱。

          • 家园 通行说法是这样,但唐也是老蒋点的将。

            老蒋明知守不住而想守,故而需要有个人承担这个名义上的责任,最先打算让刘湘干干,可刘湘既不太热心又有病,退而求其次想到唐生智,这好唐也静极思动,一拍即合。

          • 家园 同感

            再怎么说,让士兵们拼命,自己却偷偷逃跑。

            总是说不过去的。

    • 家园 Excerpts from 《Soldiers of the Sun》

      The road to Nanjing and to the Generalissimo himself lay open. For Matsui, now Commander-in-Chief of Japan's newly created Central China Expeditionary Force, the temptation to push on was irresistable - but the order to advance did not come. On 3 November, a peace initiative sponsored by Vice-Chief of Staff Hayao Tada had begun through the medium of the German Ambassordors to Tokyo and Nanking. The terms of peace, including the creation of a demilitarized zone extending south of Yunting River and a Nationalist-Japanese partnership against Communists, were not actually presented to Chiang until 5 November. Time was needed to consider and negotiate the terms - but time was running out now for Tada and the others crying restraint, who found themselves locked in a battle as fierce as that raging on the Yangtse with those who wanted to expand the war against China.

      The debate over whether or not to advance to Nanking laid bare a fundamental flaw which had developed in the character of the army since the 19th century. From being simply the executant of policy decided largely by others, the army, through dedicating itself to preparing Japan for total war, had come to take a profound interest in formulating as well as executing policy. But the new interest was not supported by a new system or institutional framework. The army might now be capable intellectually of deciding its own destiny; but organisationally it was still the servant of others.

      Under men like Nagata and Araki, organisational frailties were concealed to some extent, such was their personal dynamism. The one an effective consensus builder, the other the head of a powerful clique, both were clear in their minds as to what needed to be done, and under their direction the Imperial Army could make policy purposefully and relatively efficiently. In their different ways they acted as clearing houses for the masses of conflicting opinions rising from every section of the General Staff and Army Ministry and the independent commands on the mainland - assembling, focussing, filtering, integrating, analysing, interpreting. Had either Nagata or Araki been Army Minister when the shots were fired at the Marco Polo Bridge, it is quite possible that war would never have developed.

      Without this kind of dominant figure, policy-making in the army was haphazard in the extreme, determined on the one hand by temporary coalitions of officers in the Tokyo High Command and on the other by the pre-emptive action of officers in the field. General Yanagawa, for example, used his field command to try and enforce his view of policy by ordering the 10th Army to advance on Nanking. This was immediately countermanded by Tada, who repeated his prohibition to Matsui. Neither General disobeyed this direct order, but a cabal of officers in Tokyo who wanted Nanking captured then proceeded to work on Tada to persuade him that his order reflected bad policy.

      This was not conspiracy or insubordination; there was no secret about the identity of these expansionist officers. They were sincere in their views - and in the Imperial Army, sincerity was always allowed a voice. As it happened, events on the mainland played into their hands. The landings at Hanchow Bay and Plover Point had been very successful, successful enough to encourage those who wanted to advance - but not to convince Chiang that defeat was inevitable. During November the peace initiative gradually withered. On 1 December, Tada capitulated and gave the order to move on Nanking; on 2 December, Chiang also gave in and agreed to discuss peace - 24 hours too late to save his capital.

      The Nanking decision illustrated not only the method of policy-making, but its sinister weaknesses. So wide was the spread of the consensus required for action that no one person had a sense of responsibility for what eventually happened, though later an individual might accept personal credit or blame. In effect, it was a 'system of irresponsibilities', lacking accountability and potentially irrational. And because they were taken jointly, desicions tended to reflect the general characteristics of the group. As all the members had been through the same process of indoctrination at Ichigaya, stressing the importance of the attack, the consensual system tended to ensure that anmy policy was weighted towards action.

      The method was also very slow. In the case of Nanking, it had taken nearly a month to make the desicion in favor of a campaign that was to last only 12 days - militarily, a disastrous delay. A swift pursuit might have broken the back of Chiang's military strength for good; instead the commanders' vacillation allowed many of Chiang's troops to escape.

    • 家园 说到底,南京是不应该死守的

      原来准备宣布为不设防城市,但老唐拍胸脯,最后又装孙子……

      守南京的部队其实在淞沪会战中死伤惨重,更本不堪一战,很多都是补充的新兵,战斗力下降很厉害。

      • 家园 老蒋也有原因

        认为首都不放一枪就撤,不能向国人交待。李宗仁回忆录中提到过这一段。

        这和后来阎老西让傅作义死守三天太原的性质相同。

      • 家园 本来撤退是很容易做到的。

        最近看的那本书上说日军的追击并不坚决,他们在攻占上海,打破苏福防御线(还是苏州河?记不太清了)后停留耽搁了大约一个月左右,12月初大本营才下达攻击南京的命令,之前日本内阁向南京提出媾和的条件,有德国大使居间往来奔走,据说蒋于12月2日想屈服,准备接受媾和条件,但前一天,日本大本营等不及,已经下了攻击令。

        从11月初到12月初,中国从上海方面撤下来的军队本来是可以充分准备撤退或防御的。都被蒋这个笨蛋搞成一团糟。

        • 家园 老唐拍胸脯,老蒋听从了

          原来也知道南京无法守,但老唐可能是大烟抽太多了,在会议上抬出了总理灵寝所在的大高帽,让老蒋咽不下,又心怀可以一战的侥幸。

          其实确如兄所说,如果老唐最后不装孙子,南京一战也不会这样惨,至少士气不会因统帅逃跑而崩溃,这样多的人被俘虏。

          中日议和是德国大使陶得曼做的中人,彼此试探而已,双方底线差太远,从来就不可能成功。

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