主题：【原创】谈一谈圣保罗和圣彼得 -- 查理五世

I don't think the flood describled in bible is natural, just because the god don't like the people don't followed him.

I agree the soul is important for people. But if you have thought this problem deeper, is it necessary to have the god to save our soul?

Thank you for your interest in this matter. To be honest with you, that I have to admit that There are many things I do not understand, and I cannot comprehend in the Bible. One of them is the flood when Noah built the Ark. About this issue, I think I have the same feeling as you have.

You said "Does man need to be saved by God". For me, I need to be with God. God save me from great depress. Is this "save", the same meaning as your "save" ?

It is almost a fact that there is no immediate necessity to have a God for many people. It is not difficult to see it in the society.

But there are also great necessity for some people to have God. I am not the only one. It is also not difficult to see it in the society, especially the misfortunate people. Do you agree with me ?

Martin Luther King, the murdered black preist, he led the misfortunate black people to dream for equality in USA. He died for it. Is God necessary to him and the black people ?

I am so sorry to write in my bad English. I write beautiful Chinese, but I never learned "pin yin". I do not know how to type.

黑人的解放显然不是白人的上帝突然善心大发,是黑人们那么多年努力的结果.所以黑人是否信仰上帝不是问题的关键.何况还有很多黑人是信仰伊斯兰教的.

对我来说,信仰不是一件坏事情,可是认定只有XXX才能拯救人类显然是不正确的.

欢迎你来讨论这样的问题.

Who to believe, Christian, Islam, or others ? This question is out of my capcity to answer. I know that I can never understand fully about just one of them.

To my knowledge, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, all believe the same God.

Jesus started Christianity from Judaism. In the Bible, it says that the Arab and Jew are two sons of Abraham, the father of faith. The Arabs acknowledge that they are sons of Abraham.

When Mohammad started Islam about 600AD, I think he did not start it from nothing, but from their old faith passed along from the past. The last statement has no evidence, just purely from my reasoning, because I know basically nothing about Islam.

I think the way I became a Christian is partly due to myself. I had all the questions in my head at that time, just like you have now. I just blindly took a step, made a decision. It was not easy.

It happened at 1969. For all these years passing, I am glad I did it. I meet so many good frineds in the church, who are so dear to me now. Friendship is a real good thing. Of course, I also see many people in the church, whom I do not want to talk with.

It is a real tricky thing. The church has good and bad things. That is why Jesus sacrified his life to correct it. The bad thing still persists. If you come join us, you are the one to make it better.

关于阿拉伯人与犹太人的起源已经成为所谓合理的以色列占领阿拉伯领土的证明.因为阿拉伯人非嫡系,所以只有犹太人才可以继承祖先留下的土地.

非常谢谢你的建议,但是我无法将一个我根本不信的东西来作为的信仰,信仰必须是纯洁的,所以我并不反对信教的人,但是反对宗教优越性.牧师问题是另外一个很大的问题.我想我们的讨论可以结束了.

13:4 [hgb] 爱 是 恒 久 忍 耐 ， 又 有 恩 慈 。 爱 是 不 嫉 妒 。 爱 是 不 自 夸 。 不 张 狂 。

[kjv] Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

[bbe] Love is never tired of waiting; love is kind; love has no envy; love has no high opinion of itself, love has no pride;

13:5 [hgb] 不 作 害 羞 的 事 。 不 求 自 己 的 益 处 。 不 轻 易 发 怒 。 不 计 算 人 的 恶 。

[kjv] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

[bbe] Love's ways are ever fair, it takes no thought for itself; it is not quickly made angry, it takes no account of evil;

13:6 [hgb] 不 喜 欢 不 义 。 只 喜 欢 真 理 。

[kjv] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

[bbe] It takes no pleasure in wrongdoing, but has joy in what is true;

13:7 [hgb] 凡 事 包 容 。 凡 事 相 信 。 凡 事 盼 望 。 凡 事 忍 耐 。

[kjv] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

[bbe] Love has the power of undergoing all things, having faith in all things, hoping all things.

13:8 [hgb] 爱 是 永 不 止 息 。 先 知 讲 道 之 能 ， 终 必 归 于 无 有 。 说 方 言 之 能 ， 终 必 停 止 ， 知 识 也 终 必 归 于 无 有 。

[kjv] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

[bbe] Though the prophet's word may come to an end, tongues come to nothing, and knowledge have no more value, love has no end.

以上是《圣经》的英文两种译本和中文的对照。

“不 作 害 羞 的 事”，应该译作“不做不公平的事”才更合理。俺说保罗老人家即使自己不结婚，不恋爱，也不会禁止信徒却做快乐而害羞的事呀。

你这个说法有什么根据吗？这个和圣经的记载是很不相同的，耶稣在十字架上的最后那段时间有不少人在，罗马兵丁，耶稣的母亲，十二使徒中的一个也在，约翰。

《马太福音》的作者同样是耶稣门徒的马太没有记载有耶稣门徒在场，而《约翰福音》中却记载了作者约翰自己在场，俺因此怀疑是约翰自己为了夸耀自己才编写的。

这两部福音是四部福音中原始的两部，是第一手资料，有所不同，俺的取舍理由如上。

俺的原贴是强调耶稣死时门徒因为害怕不敢在场，而抹大拉的玛利亚却更有勇气，而并不是说只有她一人在场。当然可能表述上也不太精确。

《马太福音》

27:55 有 好 些 妇 女 在 那 里 远 远 地 观 看 。 她 们 是 从 加 利 利 跟 随 耶 稣 来 服 事 他 的 。

27:56 内 中 有 抹 大 拉 的 马 利 亚 ， 又 有 雅 各 和 约 西 的 母 亲 马 利 亚 ， 并 有 西 庇 太 两 个 儿 子 的 母 亲 。

《约翰福音》

19:25 [hgb] 站 在 耶 稣 十 字 架 旁 边 的 ， 有 他 母 亲 ， 与 他 母 亲 的 姊 妹 ， 并 革 罗 吧 的 妻 子 马 利 亚 ， 和 抹 大 拉 的 马 利 亚 。

[bbe] Now by the side of the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister Mary, the wife of Cleopas, and Mary Magdalene.

19:26 [hgb] 耶 稣 见 母 亲 和 他 所 爱 的 那 门 徒 站 在 旁 边 ， 就 对 他 母 亲 说 ， 母 亲 （ 原 文 作 妇 人 ） ， 看 你 的 儿 子 。

[bbe] So when Jesus saw his mother and the disciple who was dear to him, he said to his mother, Mother, there is your son!

19:27 [hgb] 又 对 那 门 徒 说 ， 看 你 的 母 亲 。 从 此 那 门 徒 就 接 她 到 自 己 家 里 去 了 。

[bbe] Then he said to the disciple, There is your mother! And from that hour the disciple took her to his house.

不错，四部福音书中，只有约翰福音说道约翰也在场，可他同时也说了耶稣的母亲，约翰和耶稣的对话，19:26-27。如果他是造假，根本不应该加上这一部分，因为这是非常容易被玛丽亚揭穿的。

没有机会看到《约翰福音》吧？

这一历史考证只能以常识度之了。

有两个可能：

一是约翰确实在场，但那为何马太不记载呢？

二是约翰不在场，他在场的记录只有他本人的记录，可能有所夸大。

俺以常识度之，约翰不在场的可能性较大，否则马太不太可能不记载。

但同样也不能否认白人中有很多人，无论是从基督教的角度也好，是从良心也好，从废奴时期开始就自觉地做出了贡献。

另外黑人信仰穆斯林不是黑人解放运动的因，相反是果，nantional musilin运动是在黑人平权运动风起云涌时期，黑人对白人文化的逆动的结果。

从常理推断，耶稣最后受难的经历和在场的人，肯定事后被人详详细细问过许多次了，被许多人知道，即使玛丽亚后来死了，也还有不少人听过和记得她的陈述。约翰如果撒谎，照样会被戳穿。

约翰记载他和耶稣亲近的经历，而别的福音书没有记载的情况有不少，比如最后的晚餐，他就比别人多记载了他和耶稣的对话，这可是见证人众多。

所以，我认为耶稣最后的时刻，约翰在场的记录可信。

因为自己的行为不端正，

俺这个人一向以小人之心度君子之腹的，人性恶，刚才就想在上一个贴子说出来，但思量再三，觉得人家都是圣徒，这样太不恭敬了，又忍住不写了。

现在没办法了，直说了吧。

俺之所以信马太而不信约翰，就如同俺不相信一个人在自己的回忆录中尽讲自己的光辉事迹，却不见录于其他当事人的回忆中。俺一见到这种，第一反应是不相信，人都是隐恶扬善的，除非也有其他当事人同样的记录才行。

不恭不恭，俺打住了，对圣徒也许可以例外？呵呵。