主题：【原创】我们留美学生在学校里反藏独（下） -- letitbe

第一个，关于宗教自由。首先要定义的就是“宗教”本身。达赖的密宗只是宗教么？其实应该是奴隶制和宗教专制的结合体。首先，他没有说要废除奴隶制。其次，虽然他说要和平，但是根据他的支持者的行为（抢火炬），他的诚信值得怀疑。根据我对中国政府声明的解读，关键不是宗教，而是“达赖的宗教”的问题。他的宗教不是纯粹的宗教，所以不能套宗教自由。

第二个，西藏在解放前就有很多民族，只是藏族占多数罢了。而且，达赖说要“大藏区”，里面有好多是其他民族的聚居地。他还要把其他民族的迁出去，这才是入侵。

第三个，达尔富尔有没有种族灭绝的屠杀就是个问题，现在美国政府自己都没有承认，联合国的调查组也没有定论。呵呵，还有其他哥们说的法国武器的问题。你们去反对法国吧

第四个，这个太好回答了。当时是反TG，是对政府的行为的不赞成，所以有人支持；现在，你们是在反华，不是反政府，是在搞种族隔离，所以我反对你。TG有地方做得不好，但是你不应该用分裂的方式。难道因为加州支持民主党，共和党上台了就要从合众国分离出去么？

河里果然藏龙卧虎啊。感谢大家的帮助，我觉得跟藏独的辩论，其实是以中立方为对象，还是得走冠冕堂皇免煮柿油的路线。重点是一来要上得了台面（国家利益之类的话不能说，跟明确史实冲突的话不能说），二来要政治正确（对TG的负面看法不方便说），三来要避免引出对方对我方不利的一些事实或数据。在这个基础上我总结下大家的意见，大家看看是否合适：

问题一：

WG的问题，除非被揪住不放，以回避为主。选择回答驱逐达赖破坏宗教自由的质问：达赖不仅是宗教领袖还是大奴隶主，解放前西藏普通人民生活非常艰难（这里考虑show几张煽情照片），tg进入西藏，对大多数西藏人民来说是真正的解放（要不秀一下文殊菩萨来显示下西藏人的感恩戴德？：P）。至于宗教自由，达赖统治下的西藏人民是最没有宗教自由的，他们只能选择崇拜达赖。很多藏民崇拜另一个神多杰雄天，tg是支持的，达赖反而在迫害他们。这个料我觉得是很猛的（感谢笑言）。很多人一定想当然认为达赖是所有藏人与生俱来至高无上的宗教领袖，如果能搜集证据到时出其不意，应该能收奇效

问题二：

西藏既然是中国的一部分，当然会有人口流动（如果能有西藏流出人口的比例最好。想来必然比汉人流入的比例高：P）。要说是入侵，其实一直受到政策倾斜的是藏人（列一下巨额补贴？ms很多被浪费掉，不知会不会被攻击。有人提到计划生育问题，还有其他明确针对普通藏人的政策倾斜吗？）。至于说藏人都要求独立，他们极少数流亡藏人没资格代表全体藏人。他们多少年没回西藏了，怎么知道西藏的整体情况呢？（然后开始秀各种反映西藏民生改善的数据照片。如果有中立机构的数据最好，以免被攻击数据造假。同时再攻击下过去的农奴制）

问题三：

关于免煮柿油，这完全是不同的问题：我们没有人会因为国家不够免煮柿油而不爱我们的祖国——我们这么多人到场就是最好的证明。同样地，这更不能成为分裂祖国的理由。

关于达尔富尔，看了黑岛人的帖子，果然连联合国都没有给出种族灭绝的定性，谁是凶手也不一定。

问题四：

我想还是说我们来此代表的是祖国，是出于我们的爱国心。政府是否有做错什么，并不能影响我们对祖国的热爱，更不能作为分裂祖国的借口（就像美国人觉得伊战是错误，但这不妨碍他们爱国一样？）。另外据说连民运和轮子也有参加反藏独的？有没有什么具体内容？这个感觉更能说明问题。

这两天网上到处吵得沸反盈天，我个人认为，一些同学的言论有陷入误区之嫌。具体表现为：

1. 窝里斗，还搞得很公开化。比如是否抵制家乐福，一个说没什么意义，可能导致过激行动，另一个就说你这种说法是污蔑是逃兵云云。其实这个问题我觉得根本无关宏旨，为了这个自己人吵起来，还互相给对方带高帽子，实属不智。自己人都团结不了，还说什么团结一切可以团结的力量呢？

2. 对冒头的藏独或类藏独言论，往往采取简单的鄙视或辱骂来应对。在外人看来，往好里说是狗咬狗，往恶毒里说，就是跟对我们的一些侮辱性描述恰好吻合。

3. 对态度比较客观诚恳的中立美国人，往往过于戒备，对一些批评耿耿于怀，甚至把对方的家丑拎出来，简直是在说自己虽然很丑恶，只是你更丑恶。我个人认为，藏独跟我们是敌我关系，要不留情面坚决打击，过了那段敌我冲突阶段，有中立方来发表意见，就应该很大方的跟他们交流，在不涉及祖国统一的原则问题的前提下，缺点、错误都可以谈，当然藏独方的缺点、错误更可以谈，大大的谈：）与此同时也不妨互相吹捧一下：美国银民是爱国地，反对分裂地，反对暴力、恐怖地。我们中国银民也一样。我们中美银民都是伟大地银民～：P

4. 某些同学，在喊口号、发传单的时候受了友邦人士的奚落、白眼，就开始自我否定自我批评。我觉得值得商榷。我们为什么要打断对方？因为对方掌握着话筒子，我们的声音得不到倾听。在UCLA，藏独连着说几小时，只给我们5分钟时间，这还叫我们妨碍言论自由？要搞言论自由，那就应该公平分配时间辩论吧？为什么不提出类似的正当诉求呢？至于那些对中国学生表示强烈反感的人，有多少是之前没有任何成见，仅仅因为这次行动造成了负面印象的呢？当然，这么说不是回避一些过激行为造成的影响，我上面也提到了对一些同学的不当言行的不满。bottom line，看看友邦媒体都在进行怎样的宣传就知道，友邦人士的普遍心理倾向基本是意料之中的。我感觉很多人对此没有心理准备，才会造成这样的落差。我们中国人如果说有偏颇的话，通常偏的是“温良恭俭让”的方向。记得唵啊吽的一篇文章里就曾介绍过一个观点：当法律本身存在歧视的时候，故意违法其实是推动社会进步的一个方法。黑人民权运动中有很多偏激的地方，包括暴力组织黑豹党。走和平路线的马丁路德金也曾屡屡入狱，这些人的作为在当时社会上“良民”们的眼里，其形象大概不只是不免煮不柿油，更简直要接近罪犯吧？（btw做一下广告，强烈建议在美事业有成的同胞们看看唵啊吽关于华人从政的系列文章）。当然，我们完全不需要也没必要做到那种偏激的程度。我只是觉得，我们不能因为别人对我们有成见就画地为牢，该出手时不敢出手。

实话讲有点空，不是特别organized。不知道语气会不会也重了点。大家有兴趣的话就批两句吧：）其实跟他们吵也没什么意思。通情达理的大多早看出来双方都有一定道理，有成见的人自然会盯住你的小辫子不放。最近兴奋过度，花太多时间在这上面了。大家还是以为中华之崛起而努力工作学习要紧！

I really appreciate you spending the time trying to figure out what is really going on in Tibet and what are the real thoughts of us Chinese scholars and students. Well one thing is for sure: there is no way the one hundred plus people showing up on Monday to protest are all brain-washed. Most of us are from the top universities in China, and for many years we have been easy-going and hard-working colleagues and students with your people here. If we never look fanatic to you, our strong reactions this time would make you wonder whether those separatists are indeed telling the truth, or the whole picture. You may want to stop and listen to us for a while. The opportunity to be heard from. That is all what we asked for.

And trust me the opportunity doesn't come easy. You praised those separatists for giving us equal time to debate. I acknowledge that. Even though we are just students who speak English as second language and gather at the plaza on short notice, while those people are "professionals" in stirring public emotion and have planned for this since a long time ago, it's still nice to have the chance to debate. What you may not know is when they went to UCLA, they learnt from their "mistake" and talked by themselves for hours and only gave our side 5 min for rebuttal. What a clever strategy, taking full advantage of the power of a loudspeaker permit to minimize the exposure time of the opposing party.

Even if we have the equal chance to speak and make our points, the truth could be easily "edited" by the media to show otherwise. I'm sorry if I don't seem to trust the media here too much. Believe me I'm not like this 2 months ago. Given you have paid much attention to this issue, I would not try to bore you with all the fabricated photographs from CNN and many other news stations, since you probably already know this and it's very easy to search. If you have read the report from local news <＃＃＃＃＃>, you may find this sentence "One man even ripped a poster out of the hands of a woman on the opposing side and threw it to the ground before being escorted away by police." That's indeed the truth, except they forgot to mention the attacker is from their side. Maybe the identity is just too hard for them to find out, or there is no news value. In fact, there is a easy way to find out the objectivity of news stations here: as you said, most people here see Dalai as a nice guy. Actually, correct me if I'm wrong: I'm afraid a majority of people here are also very likely to have the impression that Dalai should have Tibet back and China is doing something wrong, even if they actually know pretty much nothing about what has happened or is happening there. So where did they get the fixed opinion?

In the end, I'd like to say a few more words about our seemingly overheated reactions. We love our country, just as your people love yours. Our country has made mistakes in the past, sometimes big ones. However, that won't affect our affection, and certainly won't be excuses to destroy our unity. Sooner or later, we will correct all the missteps. And we are already doing much better, as you have seen with your own eyes. But does everyone here know? As an obviously over-educated man with a special interest on this issue, you also admit you don't know many of China's policies towards minority people. How much do you think other people in this country know? Or rather, how many good things about China has the US media been telling? If we seem to speak alike and avoid talking about problems, that's only because we cherish our opportunity to be heard too much, and don't want to risk our opinion being distorted by the media. With all due respect, I don't doubt that your people have a sincere concern about China's problems, but we know our problems the best, and we are already improving by ourselves. We certainly would like to let people know more about China, and we welcome advice or criticism, as long as they come with a good will (such as yours. thank you for being objective so far). But any separatist behavior won't be tolerated, no matter whether it's due to ill intention, or lack of knowledge. The 100+ people showing up on Monday, they are originally from various places of China and various social backgrounds. There is a reason for them to make the efforts. To me, that reason is to tell others: Chinese people are working hard towards a better future, and we won't allow anyone or anything to sabotage this course. If we can't get heard by speaking, we have to get heard by shouting. I believe that's also how the black people got their long overdue human rights in US.

P.S. talking about being mean, we are just normal people, and some of us can be bad-tempered, so we certainly may overreacte sometimes, in which case we sincerely apologize. However, as far as I know, the only violent scene on Monday is the one described in the above local news, started by a man in the separatist group.

个人认为这里的逻辑不成立.

我的话,这样说

1.在中国的生活经历,使我经历了中国给藏人的favorable discrimation,事实胜于雄辩.

2.我是听过中国美国两面的说法的,而美国人只知道藏人流亡政府的说法

3.美国媒体说的东西和美国学者说的不一样.例如,Friendly Feuderalism, the Tibet myth by michael parenti

4.让他想一下conflict of interest, given their history, 西藏流亡政府有没有误导的可能.

个人认为过多弥补以前的过失了,让人觉得欲盖弥彰,不用被牵着走,告诉他们因为你英语不好,没能把该说的说好,希望简短地说一下没说好的部分.然后按照你自己的思路说就可以了.要有明确的逻辑,每一点都要有明确的一句话的概述.