主题:【原创】【整理】致高尔夫、南方系,并安慰忘情兄 -- 巅峰背影
没有人类折腾, 不会天然到草上, 菜上的。
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地中海粉螟,产卵于幼虫的食物里,幼虫从一出生就生活在面粉堆里,它们从哪里吃到的Bt菌呢?它们吃得到,人吃得到吗?
以下是若干文献,说明Bt菌在自然界植物以及植物制品上的广泛分布:
[URL=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC182704/]The Phylloplane as a Source of Bacillus thuringiensis Variants
[/URL]
《叶面是Bt菌变种的来源》
在针叶和落叶林的叶面上分离到Bt菌。这些Bt菌对毛虫有毒性。
[URL=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC195596/]
Distribution, Frequency, and Diversity of Bacillus thuringiensis in an Animal Feed Mill[/URL]
《Bt菌在一个动物饲料磨坊里的分布,频率和多样性》
在一个动物饲料磨坊里分离到Bt菌。其中一些产生delta-toxin
[URL=http://www.ots.ac.cr/tropiweb/attachments/volumes/vol54-2/04-RODRIGUEZ-Bacillus.pdf]
Bacillus thuringiensis in caterpillars and associated materials collected from protected tropical forests in northwestern Costa Rica
[/URL]
《哥斯达黎加西北部热带保育森林里的毛虫和相关物体上采集到的Bt菌》
在哥斯达黎加的森林里的叶片,毛虫肠和粪便中分离到Bt菌
and other orders of invertebrates. Materials associated with 37 caterpillars from 16 species, collected while feeding
on 15 different species of host plants in dry, cloud and rain forests located in the rea de Conservación
Guanacaste in northwestern Costa Rica, were examined for the presence of Bt. From a total of 101 derived
samples, 25 Bt isolates were cultured: 56% from host plant leaves, 8% from caterpillar guts and 36% from caterpillar
fecal pellets. Bt was isolated from at least one sample in 38% of the systems constituted by the food plant,
gut and fecal pellets corresponding to a single caterpillar. Four different morphologies of crystalline inclusions
were observed, with bipyramidal and irregular crystal morphologies being the most prevalent. Rev. Biol. Trop.
54(2): 265-271. Epub 2006 Jun 01.
《Bt菌的自然分离株: 世界范围内的分布,定性,以及对昆虫害虫的活性》
来自于80个国家的5303个自然样品里分离到的Bt菌,45%来自于储存的产品,25%来自于土壤。抗昆虫活性物含量最高的样品是磨菇和储藏的产品……
Bacillus thuringiensiswas isolated from natural samples collected from 80 countries. The majority, 45% of the 5303 isolates, originated from stored products, with 25% originating from soil. The materials richest in isolates active in insects were mushroom compost and stored products. The proportion with bipyramidal-shaped crystals was 46%, while among the range of other shapes 14% were spherical and 4% rectangular. The largest proportion of isolates, 45%, was found in the United Kingdom with the majority originating from stored mills, which import produce from all over the world; 22% came from North America. Using single-dose assays, 44% of the isolates killed less than 25% of larvae of all four Lepidoptera tested,Heliothis virescens, Pieris brassicae, Spodoptera littoralis,andAgrotis ypsilon.Among isolates killing more than 25% of the larvae, every combination of activities of the 16 possible against these 4 insects was found, in proportions ranging from 0.6 to 14.5%, suggesting considerable diversity of insect activity. The 44% of strains with little or no activity to Lepidoptera (<25% mortality) included strains selectively active against Diptera and Coleoptera. An analysis of activity using one representative species from each of the three orders of insectsH. virescens, Aedes aegypti,andPhaedon cochleariaeshowed 48.8% of strains to be inactive (<25% mortality) in all three, with 1.2 to 14.6% active in the other 7 possible combinations. For an analysis of geographical origins of insect activity, 3 species (P. cochleariae, S. littoralis,andH. virescens) were chosen with susceptibility to different δ-endotoxins. With one exception, activity did not appear to be correlated with origin, indicating a relatively ubiquitous distribution of the selected activities and ofB. thuringiensisin general. The worldwide spread and evolution of this insect pathogen and its different types are discussed in relation to geographical origin and source materials, as well as possible interaction with other bacteria.
Isolation, distribution and toxicity of Bacillus thuringiensis from warehouses in China
《来自于中国仓库的Bt菌的分离,分布与毒性》
在413个来自于谷仓,加工工厂和饲料厂的粉尘和死虫样品中,有122个样品里分离到了Bt菌。其中在存放米糠和麻袋装米的仓库的粉尘里分离到的样品最多。
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这里已经看不出发贴的层次,再说对楼主的主题也是严重的歪楼。欢迎去新帖继续讨论:
你看了我回复啥,再回复好不好?
我挑了一个最明显的问题,那个问题跟你这里所嘲笑的方舟子不知什么是内毒素,基本是一个水平。
剩下的我就不评价了,我大学毕业很多年了,对大专辩论会早没兴趣了。
如果说不客气点嘛,你根本没看懂我那篇主要在说啥。
不过提两点:1,转基因植物里,据我所知是不用cyt蛋白的,都是用cry蛋白。所以仅仅从肠道受体这个方面考虑,的确cry蛋白在人体里不会像在昆虫肠道里那样先结合受体再破坏细胞膜,也就是说特异性的毒性要低很多。
至于cry在没有受体介导的情况下,能不能结合细胞膜,结合细胞膜之后的毒性是否还比较强,这个我就不清楚了。
不过这的确说明仅仅因为人体内没有受体就说cry蛋白绝对安全,这是不谨慎的。胃功能障碍的食用者如果大量食入cry蛋白,很难说会出现什么情形。
2,Bt感染虫子之后,首先是肠壁细胞膜功能被毒蛋白破坏,在细胞膜上会有孔洞形成,这个穿孔和肠穿孔完全不是一回事,这你说得很对。
不过虫子的肠壁因为细胞大量坏死,最终的确要穿孔的,这能不能叫“肠穿孔”我不确定,因为就像你说的,肠穿孔是医学上一个特有概念。不过最后虫子的肠壁最终的确要破裂,然后细菌和芽孢会从破裂的地方进入虫体,造成败血症(我不知道这个词用得对不对,英文里是这么说的,septicemia)。这是虫子死亡的直接原因。
别的,除了对方的个人评价,都同意你。本来是准备完全同意的,后来想到,对方个人呢,除了道听途说的一些信息外,我对他这个人没啥研究,所以还是暂不同意比较合适。
作为一个曾经的科学工作者,他如此信誓旦旦地为转基因打包票,比真正做转基因安全性研究的人还信心百倍,不由得人不怀疑他的立场是否真正公正。一个合格的研究人员在做陈述时,是不会忘记说研究的前提条件的。
加拿大有研究人员发现bt毒素引起新生儿肠道综合症引起穿肠。
且不说是否这两者有直接因果关系,单就婴儿血液里发现bt毒素这一点,就足以让人震惊的了。不是说煮熟了就失活了么?不是说在胃酸里会完全分解么?不是说人没有受体么?怎么还会有带活性的毒素存在呢?怎么会进入婴儿血液造成穿肠呢?