主题：【整理】占领华尔街 -- 天煞穆珏

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复华盛顿邮报评论为什么占领华尔街同民主党不可能是天然盟友

家园

忽然有个想法

美国的民主党与共和党，相当于英国历史上的辉格党和托利党。英国是老大的时候，这两党轮替就跟驴象轮替一样。20世纪初，英国开始走下坡路了，辉格党逐渐失势，选了个非主流党魁。到了20年代，自由党泡沫化，两大党之一的地位被迅速崛起的工党取代。

美国现在的处境跟当年的英国是相似的，扩张到了极限，海外用兵已经无法带来正面回报。内部食利阶层无耻贪婪，下层相对困苦且看不到希望——这都是产生一个左派党的优良土壤。

大胆预言一下，花街革命（姑且这样叫吧）对美国的两党制将产生类似一战对英国一样的影响。两党中间民主党受的冲击最大，很可能被一个真正偏左的工人党或者社会民主主义政党所取代。

要是未来20年美国不解体的话，我们将见到民主党的泡沫化。

复完全讲反了

家园

应该是一极小部分

应该是一极小部分的精英有组织的煽动或发动广大的底层人民，进行有组织的运动，否则在目前的社会形态下，麻木，东村发生的事情西村的村民只是看看热闹，如何能起来

复应该是一极小部分

家园

现在这些JY还是不要了，

我看到太多的私心、贪婪、无耻，要做炮灰也要做当年TG的炮灰。

复这个可能性不大，因为他们不可能两线作战，而如果他们先把

家园

你是认为他们国内那个是一个战线

我看还达不到那个程度，最多是一个可以利用的局面。所以不存在两面作战的问题。

现在基本上是没有冲突的，就是一群人在那里JJYY。你查一查那OWS网站的诉求，现在在投票阶段呢。8个DEMAND，还要人投票选出一个（有一个选项是可以全选的），等他们决定好口径后，就要和国会negotiate。

闹到国会去，然后议员们出面忽悠群众，说，这个问题我们再研究研究嘛，在国会投票还讲究一个程序不是？然后就拖。针对他们的DEMAND又提出修改，这里改一点，那里改一点，要求妥协。要不就是分化群众，比如特别倾向某一个DEMAND，然后就说另一个DEMAND不接受，诸如此类的手法。

一拖二拖，等到这些散步的到了三而竭的地步，就该上下一场戏了。然后对外的宣传口径就是，俺们米国是民主的，是自由的，然后拉出89年来恶心中国。

现在看点是什么呢？我是看这次米国政府准备怎么忽悠民众，然后看这群人是不是“醒目”了些。我看这次的运动，最好的结果（或者说最坏的结果）就是国会做出某种表面上的妥协，然后他们宣布，革命胜利了。

我感觉很多人对美国群众有一种不切实际的期待。我老实告诉你，我等美国人起来推翻他们邪恶的政府，我等了大约10年了。中间出现的群体事件我没少关心过。在这个阶段，我对美国群众是不抱任何希望的。

每一次我都期望美国群众能用行动证明我是错的，可是每一次我都无可奈何的对了。

本帖一共被 1 帖引用 (帖内工具实现)

我给你来点实在的

复【整理】占领华尔街

家园

我们就是99%的人民大众

占领墙街网站是： www.occupywallst.org

他们来自各个年龄，团体，不是不满找不到工作，也不是要简单的劫富济贫，他们是为了一个自由的理想，为了一个公平的理念，为了摆脱现代金融奴役制度，为了曾经引以为傲的立国精神。他们是99%的人民大众。这个口号，振聋发聩，掷地有声。

When we occupy Wall Street and demand change we are actually occupying the world and demanding change. We have let a monetary system corrupt us to the core and did little about it in fear of starving to death, it is clear that we are slaves to the system and it must go!

当我们占领墙街，并且要求改变的时候，我们实际是占领世界，并且要求改变。我们让一个金钱的制度腐蚀我们，深入核心，而无所作为，只因担心饥饿而死，现在明白了，我们成为这个制度的奴隶了，这个制度必须滚蛋！

We are The 99%. No single person or group is more important than any other. This is a leaderless movement. It's very easy to tear down a person. It's much harder to tear down an idea.

我们就是那99%的人民大众。没有一个人或者组织比其他人或者组织更加重要。这是一个没有领导者的运动。因为很容易搞倒一个人，但却很难破坏一个理念。

Please be aware that by claiming some of these groups as our's, we are going to eliminate some from joining a movement who's core goals are the same as their own. DO NOT LET THIS BECOME THE LEFT WING TEA PARTY. The entire system is broken. Both sides of the aisle are corrupted by the soft money that gets them elected.

请警惕那些宣称这些组织是我们的，实际上我们就将把那些与我们拥有相同核心目标的组织排除在外。不要使此成为左翼茶党。整个系统都破败了。两党都被选他们上来的软金钱腐败掉了。

We are very naive if we believe the rhetoric that one side is on our side. Just look at Obama's actual policies. They are basically the same as Bush's. We have been divided over fake partisan lines, and we are being conquered. We need to unite as Americans to win our representative government back.

我们就太天真了，如果相信有一方是在我们这边的花言巧语。看一下奥巴马实际的政策就知道了。它们基本上和布什的是相同的。我们被虚假的党派路线所分裂，然后我们就被征服控制了。我们需要作为美国人民团结起来，把本应代表人民的政府夺回来。

Spot on. "We are the 99%" says it all. The 99% includes people from across the political spectrum all working toward a government of the people, by the people and for the people.

准确来说，“我们就是那99%”，道出了一切。99%包括来自各种政治光谱的人民，为了一个民有，民治，民享的政府而奋斗。

Each one of us recognize that big money has staged a silent coup by which control has shifted such that the government is now of big money, by big money and for big money.

我们每一个人都发现，金融寡头，进行了一场无声的政变，（本来该由人民控制的）政府，现在为金融寡头所有，为其所控制，为其所服务。

Our concerns are many and diverse, but our common goal is to return control of government to we the 99%. In other words "End control of the government by global banks, corporations and billionaires.

我们关心的事情多种多样，但是我们有一个共同的目标，就是归还政府的所有权于我们，那99%的人民大众。换句话说就是，“结束政府被全球银行，跨国公司，和亿万富翁控制的局面”。

Once that is done, all concerns can be addressed democratically. Until that is done share your concerns but focus on the message "We are the 99%.

当政府回归人民的时候，所有的担心都可以通关过民主化来解决。在那成功之前，分享你们所关心的，但是专注于我们的传达的信息， “我们就是那99%的人民大众”。

The clear message is "End control of the government by global banks, corporations and billionaires." as summed up by "We are the 99%".

我们的口号标语就是“结束政府为全球银行，跨国公司，和亿万富翁所控制”，正如“我们就是那99%的人民大众”中所概括的。

"If you do not understand what's going on, simply understand this, that the top 1% of the wealthiest most powerful people in the world own 85%% of the wealth in the world. They own governments and media, they own and control most everything you perceive.

如果你不知道发生了什么，就简单的理解一下这个，就是世界上1%最富有最有权势的人，占有了世界上85%的财富。他们拥有政府和媒体，他们控制你能觉察到的绝大部分事物。

And they're not done accumulating wealth, they want the 15% that they do not yet have.

并且他们还在不停地积攒财富，他们想要得到还没得到的剩余的15%的财富。

Now ask yourself, when they get that 15%, what use will they have for us then? Considering they don't care for us now, what use would we be then to them? This isn't just about a fight for your wealth, it's a fight for your life.

现在问一下你自己，当他们得到剩余的15%的时候，他们对于我们还有什么用处？想想现在他们都忽视我们，到那时，我们对于他们又有何用处？这不仅仅是为获得你的财富的斗争，这是为你的生命而进行的斗争。

As a grandcapitalist perhaps you have yet to realize that the 99% includes you assuming you are in favor of a government of the people, by the people and for the people.

即使你是个大资本家，如果你支持一个民有，民治，民享的政府，你可能还未认识到你也是99%之中的一员。

通宝推：talanet,真理,

复我们就是99%的人民大众

家园

应了葡萄的予言:美国离社会主义只差一步

但忠心希望这一步充满血腥、无它、要不上帝就太偏袒白人了、美帝吸的全世界人民的血必须吐出来、更何况即便美国变成社会主义国家、中美并不意味着和平共处的到来、斗争依旧只是形色会变。

复我们就是99%的人民大众

家园

我给你来点实在的

喊口号，营养价值不高。我们来看看他们究竟要求什么？

外链出处

1.CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act#Repeal .

要求金融管制。这个是好的。只是美国的lawmaker太狡猾了。就算这个demand他们答应了，后面再出什么要蛾子还是可能的。

2.USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.

这个是他们的lynch list。可能会丢出几个顶罪的。真正的大头他们是动不了的。

3.CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.

选举献金的问题。老实说，美国人对这种腐败的认识还是很幼稚的。反正不能公开买选举，我就暗地里买嘛。

4.CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.

这个是要求分大饼的。问题是，他们要求上调多少呢？不过这个最有可能和国会达到某种妥协。

5.CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.

也是金融管制的。老实说，这个是一个体制的问题。你换人，其实是换汤不换药。

6.CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.

针对lobbyist。问题是，他们对要怎么限制lobbyist的影响力，一点概念没有。

7.CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.

这个要对付政府内腐败的问题。是一个好的提议。但是同样的，此路不通，我还是可以变着法儿去腐败你的。但至少这条要求是比较有针对性的。不觉得这个能在国会得到妥协。

8.ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.

赫赫，这个如果通过，的确是一大胜利。你们觉得可能么？企业的法人地位，是整个美国企业文化的法律基石。你要釜底抽薪，就是要他们的命了。

最后我再给你们添一把油。

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

这个是非官方的一些诉求，正在讨论中。可以看看可耐的美国群众真实的想法。

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

这不就是赖账么？

中国手中所持的美债。。。中国人民最好想想这场所谓“革命”对中国来说，价格是多少。