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主题:【原创】有一种骗局叫做方舟子--揭穿方舟子的伪装 -- 思想的行者

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家园 那会网上热议了好一阵,论文数目上是非很清楚。

当时周围至少5个从武汉大学,武汉医学院出来的,武汉法院的判决就是笑料,他们都觉得丢面子。

家园 咱们的分歧在这里:诚信问题您认为是花边,我认为是根本
家园 我认为方是为了打假,是为了于中国有益。咱们各表吧。

给生物公司当咨询之类的人多了,咨什么询的都有。你怎么知道方干什么具体工作?全是臆测。

关于转基因的问题,前几天有个关于转基因科普宣传的会议,陈章良,饶毅都讲得很好,建议你去查一下听一听。

你的最后一句话,不合逻辑,请再察看一下。

********************

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjc2MzQzNDcy.html

中国生物工程学会、中国植物生理与分子生物学学会、中国作物学会、中国植物保护学会和中国农业生物技术学会联合发起,中国农业科学院生物技术研究所承办的“农作物生物育种产业化高层研讨会2014” 于2月14日下午在北京召开。相关管理部门、科研院校、种子企业代表近300人参会。

中国科协副主席、书记处书记陈章良出席了研讨会并担任会议主席。他在讲话中指出,科学普及是各级科协组织的一项重要职能,是科技学会和科技工作者的重要责任。相关学会要进一步加强以转基因技术为重点的科普宣传,大力传播科学正能量,以提高全民族科学文化素质,增强对各类伪科学、反科学言行的免疫力和抵抗力,为创新驱动发展和粮食安全战略部署的落实创造良好条件

家园 没有去进行调查的人会认为肖的论文数只有0

因为他们没有查过

所以,你说的什么什么大学的同学的看法根本就不算什么,你确定他们去具体查阅了肖传国的论文了吗?

美国泌尿学权威、密执根州Beaumont Hospitals (这是美国有名的一家医院)泌尿科主任 Dr. Kenneth M. Peters 等在First World Congress on Spina Bifida Research and Care Urology会议上的的摘要,报告了对九个病人在他们医院里实施“肖氏手术”一年后的总结报告。(收录在 JOURNAL OF UROLOGY Volume: 181 Issue: 4 Pages: 310-311, 原文在网上也可以查到:http://medicalconference.spinabi ... e6fa5%7D/UROL27.PDF,顺便说一句,这个结果获得了会议的第三名奖)。网上也有中文翻译:

背景:通过一个显微手术连接腰骶运动神经,建立一个皮肤-中枢神经-膀胱的人工反射弧,以恢复脊柱裂病人的膀胱排尿功能,这个概念是肖氏介绍并提出。我们在这里报告这一全新治疗手段1年间的结果和经验。

方法:9个病人,3男6女,中位年龄8岁,跨度从6岁到37岁。手术前,对他们进行广泛评估。神经重建手术一直在神经生理指标监控下进行。术后评估包括:1个月后的神经系统的检查,随访问卷调查和排尿动力学试验,后者包括在术后3,6,9和12个月对肖氏反射弧的刺激。病人的随访要持续3年。

结果:9个病人中,5个在出生后24小时内实行胎儿脊髓膨出闭合手术,3个则在未出生时行子宫内脊髓膨出闭合手术,1个从没做过手术. 平均手术时间是183分钟,平均失血量为57毫升。手术中没有出现任何不良症状。病人在医院平均时间是3.4天。手术后相关的症状包括1个病人脚下垂,3个病人伤口渗液, 和1个病人长时间不能站立。1个月后,神经学检查显示有2个病人的走路得到很大改变,8个病人出现多多少少不同程度的下肢肌肉乏力,但随着理疗和时间的推移,他们恢复到或接近于术前水平。有趣的是,术后几个月,有几个病人突然感觉排尿能力变弱,或大便断断续续或便意增强,接着,情况好转,能够开始自我控制排尿和主动排尿。12个月后的尿流动力学复查发现,7个儿童能够间续性自主排尿平均达133+75毫升,余尿119+125毫升,刺激反射弧相应皮肤,有7个儿童非常明显出现排尿肌的压力上升。总的来说,1年后,9个病人全部表现出通过人工反射弧引起的膀胱收缩能力和/或膀胱的主动排尿能力。术后1年,6个病人报告大便功能也得到恢复。有78%的病人说他们愿意再次进行这样的手术。

结论:自主排尿功能可以早在神经线路再造手术6个月后即出现。术后病人下肢肌肉乏力的症状能随着理疗和时间的推移得到显著改善。

虽然不是这个专业的,读了这个报告我还是能理解一点肖式手术的意义、副作用和局限性(即使这是个成功的手术)。脊柱裂病会导致膀胱排尿功能障碍,进一步引起肾病乃至肾衰竭死亡。肖式手术就是为了解决膀胱排尿功能障碍将其他神经连接到膀胱上解决排尿功能障碍,避免肾病肾衰竭。肖式手术并不能完全解决脊柱裂病(说的不对请老肖等纠正),但能解决脊柱裂病引起的排尿问题。这是它的局限性,大概也是有些患者不理解的地方。可能的副作用是脚下垂、伤口渗液、长时间不能站立、下肢肌肉乏力等。这也好理解。动了神经必然会引起这样的不良反应。问题是能不能完全或部分恢复。对患者来说,如果不能完全或部分恢复,用牺牲一条腿的部分甚至全部功能换取排尿功能恢复以避免肾病肾衰竭是否值得?这都是需要回答的问题。Dr. Peters 至少给出了初步可信的结果:1年后,9个病人全部表现出通过人工反射弧引起的膀胱收缩能力和/或膀胱的排空能力。这个结果是用科学的测量(尿流动力学)检测出来的。而且,副作用有,但可以完全或部分恢复。

外链出处

很遗憾,上文的链接我这里打不开。

我用谷歌搜索了一篇

From March 15 to 18, the First World Congress on Spina Bifida Research and Care convened in Orlando, Fla., under the direction of the Spina Bifida Association of America (SBA). This multidisciplinary meeting involved representatives from more than 30 countries around the world and represented a broad range of fields including neurosurgery, orthopedics, urology, developmental pediatrics, nursing and epidemiology/public health. Approximately 20 pediatric neurosurgeons from a wide range of academic and private practices attended and discussed a variety of important topics including the management of hydrocephalus and tethered spinal cord, transitional care and the controversial new procedure, lower urinary tract refunctionalization by somatic/autonomic nerve root transposition in children, commonly known as the Xiao procedure.

Chuan-Guo Xiao, MD, presented the urology keynote lecture and reviewed outcome data for the “Xiao procedure,” lower urinary tract refunctionalization by somatic/autonomic nerve root transposition in children with spinal cord abnormalities. He reported that 1,320 patients have undergone this procedure in China. Follow-up data were available for 400 patients: 87 percent demonstrated effectiveness of the procedure as measured by freedom from catheterization and freedom from recurrent urinary tract infections. Dr. Xiao then stayed for an additional day at the end of the meeting to present a one-day symposium on the procedure. This represented the first time these techniques had been taught in North America.

外链出处

以下链接是对肖传国手术的一些介绍

The procedure, commonly called the Xiao procedure, involves the surgical transposition of functional lumbar ventral roots to sacral roots. Typically the L5 ventral root is partially or completely divided and rerouted/anastamosed to the S3 root or complex of sacral roots containing S3 and S4. The rationale for the procedure centers on the spinal reflex-arc and on the capability of somatic motor axons to regenerate into and replace preganglionic axons. Clinically vigorous stimulation within the dermatome of the transposed lumbar root initiates a spinal reflex that results in bladder contraction. Experimental work done by Xiao and colleagues in the late 1980s and early 1990s in rat, cat and dog models demonstrated histological evidence of bladder reinnervation. Between 1995 and 2002, 86 patients with spinal cord injuries were treated, and the reported success rate was 80 percent. The National Institutes of Health sponsored a trial for 40 spinal-cord-injured patients at New York University in 2003. An 80 percent response rate was reported. Between 2000 and 2003, 40 patients with spina bifida were treated and an 85 percent effectiveness rate was observed. Between 2003 and the time of the meeting presentation, approximately 1,300 children had undergone the Xiao procedure in China. Only 400 patients were available for follow-up due to cultural and geographic issues, but Dr. Xiao and his team observed an 87 percent rate of effectiveness.

As a result of these reported outcomes there has been great excitement among spina bifida patients and their families about the procedure. Other urologists and neurosurgeons throughout the world have become sufficiently interested in learning the procedure, and Dr. Xiao has lectured and operated extensively. The Orlando meeting was the first time that he taught the surgical technique in a postgraduate course in North America. More than 75 attendees were present and were evenly divided between urologists and neurosurgeons.

The Xiao procedure has been performed in the United States by a group from William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Mich., led by urologist Ken Peters. Dr. Peters traveled to China to learn the procedure and invited Dr. Xiao to be present at the initial surgeries in Michigan. Financing was achieved through philanthropic benefactors, and follow-up has been comprehensive and essentially uniform. Dr. Peters also presented at the Orlando postgraduate course. A total of nine patients were operated upon and their outcomes were reviewed with up to a three-year follow-up. Dr. Peters reported that two patients are no longer requiring catheterization and that seven of nine patients have some measureable return of reflex. Bowel function improved more quickly and more extensively than bladder function. Eight-to-nine patients had bilateral leg weakness initially, yet their weakness improved back to baseline such that only one patient has residual weakness. One patient has foot drop.

外链出处

肖传国手术的效果显然是被方舟子们给歪曲抹黑了的,肖传国确实是一个做出了相当贡献的学者加医生,这样的人被方舟子陷害是让人愤怒的。

家园 你怎么知道别人没查?文章都是命根子,谁有多少水都在那Re

你这调查完全是笑话。这些来龙去脉我都看过。

我的结论,肖传国在手术问题上两头骗是肯定的。他的东西,作为科研是有价值的,作为手术是不成熟,未得到充分证明的。这样不成熟的手术就在国内直接在病人身上做,费用很高,是不符合一个医生的道德的。

家园 你相信方会立刻改正?还是图样图森破

方造谣或者撒谎被揭不是一次两次了,上次他抄袭的那个人专门发信过来说他抄袭都没有见他改正更不要说立刻改正了。这次关于编委的谣我们都来看看他什么时候能改正。也可以此贴为证。

我早就说过人不要脸则无敌,方早已开启了无敌模式。

家园 这个纯粹瞎扯

你哪里来的数据?方和其水军口口声声讲科学,恰恰最不讲科学的就是他们。

你说十年前的博硕士论文大多有这个问题,你的数据在哪里?没有数据就不要造谣。

家园 我不怀疑他们没有查,我怀疑他们没有充分调查

请问不充分调查可以确定肖传国发表了多少论文

一个人要调查中国有多少人,然后他就只到中国一个省去调查,他就可以知道中国有多少人了?

至于是不是两头骗,我前面帖子贴出的最后一个链接中已经介绍了昧国方面做的实验---注意不是由肖传国做的,而是昧国人做的

The National Institutes of Health sponsored a trial for 40 spinal-cord-injured patients at New York University in 2003. An 80 percent response rate was reported. Between 2000 and 2003, 40 patients with spina bifida were treated and an 85 percent effectiveness rate was observed.
2003年,联邦健康研究所资助了一项在纽约大学进行的对40个病人的实验,报告了百分之八十的respond rate。在2000年到2003年,40个病人被医治,并且有85%的有效率。

The Xiao procedure has been performed in the United States by a group from William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Mich., led by urologist Ken Peters. Dr. Peters traveled to China to learn the procedure and invited Dr. Xiao to be present at the initial surgeries in Michigan. Financing was achieved through philanthropic benefactors, and follow-up has been comprehensive and essentially uniform. Dr. Peters also presented at the Orlando postgraduate course. A total of nine patients were operated upon and their outcomes were reviewed with up to a three-year follow-up. Dr. Peters reported that two patients are no longer requiring catheterization and that seven of nine patients have some measureable return of reflex. Bowel function improved more quickly and more extensively than bladder function. Eight-to-nine patients had bilateral leg weakness initially, yet their weakness improved back to baseline such that only one patient has residual weakness. One patient has foot drop.

肖氏手术在昧国由PETERS博士领导的一个小组进行了实验,Peters博士曾经到中国跟肖传国学习肖氏手术,在九人实验中,Peters报告有两个病人已经完全不需要catheterization ,九人中有七个人有了可以被观测到的好转.......

你确定PETERs博士也在骗人是吗?

家园 我最后一句话哪里不符合逻辑了

药物有副作用仍然是药物

杂草拔掉以后可以肥田,但是杂草总体上对庄稼是有害的。

一种物质是药物还是毒药,要比较其正作用和副作用哪个大。

对于方舟子而言,他有一些正作用,但是副作用远大于正作用。

至于陈章良的官腔拿出来有什么意思?

科学讲求的是什么,是真凭实据,反转基因一方一再的提出对转基因进行两年的老鼠实验,做一下为什么不可以。

你做了这个实验,如果结果证明没有问题,不就起到了很大的科普作用吗?

要真正的进行科普,那么就需要在生物学理论方面与反转基因方面进行辩论,以及进行实验,现在中国的挺转基因派就拿一些组织支持转基因作为证据,这是科学的态度吗?

家园 唉,又是一棍打空

首先,这个是MDPI自己说的,很难怪到方舟子头上:

外链出处

其次,如果Steven Winberg不是编委,这件事大可以捅出去,一下就把MDPI打倒了。

关键是独立调查员007缺少过去的打假业绩,不知道可靠性如何,要不教主亲自发邮件询问一下?

家园 这么说

我们是否应该也打一打邱成桐?

他居然敢揭露这种事情!!让他享受一下方舟子的待遇才对!

家园 那你有没有数据呢?
家园 搜索 “肖传国 成功率”

你看看第一页都是什么内容。

这个网站是总结比较全的:

外链出处

肖传国已是身败名裂的死老虎。为了反方,教主居然不断为此人张目,太令人失望。

家园 我都可以猜到教主下一步会怎么回复

他会拿一大堆支持肖传国的网址砸你,同时他会指出你这篇帖子中的逻辑错误,或者链接网页中的逻辑错误。

如果没有办法指出逻辑错误呢?他会认为你怎么这么天真,居然相信媒体或者卫生部或者部分患者的说法?

你还是先做好准备吧!

家园 最重要的是前三条。
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