主题：再谈F-35的空战性能 -- 晨枫
家园 再谈F-35的空战性能 http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-18089.html
F-16论坛上看来的，澳大利亚一个智库为澳大利亚国防部举行过一次F-35空战性能演示，一直没有看到详细结果，这里是第一次看到间接描述，报告原本还是没有看到，估计是保密的。
摘录如下：
"Uploaded by ComputerHarpoon on Jan 4, 2010
A H3 MilSim simulation of air combat between 24 * F-35A JSF and 8 * Su-35S.
Results:
Su-35S overmatch the F-35A
Armaments:
F-35A: BVR 4 * AIM-120D; Guns Mauser 25 MM
Su-35S: BVR Adder 6 * R-77 Active Seeker, 6 * R-77 IR Seeker; WVR Archer 2 * R-73; Gun GSH301 30 MM
Courtesy REPSIM PTY LTD, Australia
Setting: North-East Australia
1. Our Simulation is a derivative work of Mr. Bond's Harpoon system. We allow users to input their own sensor, weapon, and platform data. Given that, our Australian partners, with some 35 yrs in the Defense Business, including a former RAAF Wing Commander, created a database and this demonstration scenario. This demonstrates how H3 MilSim can be used to try out different scenarios using your data and your scenarios. This particular scenario doesn't fare well for the JSF.... Your values for Pd, Ph, Pk on the sensors and missiles will yield different results.
2. The RAND Corporation came up with the same conclusions about 2 years ago separately for the USAF.
3. F-35 V Su-35 aircraft, the Scenario Author's Notes:
The simulation is an accurate representation of the kinematic performance of both the aircraft and the missiles as well as sensor performance.
The F-35 CTOL due to its stealth configuration and internal carriage of weapons has altitude, release speed and attitude constraints for missile launch that dramatically reduce the AIM 120 missile performance compared to firing the missile from other aircraft such as F-16 or F-15 that can burn the missile off the rails at higher speeds and with full attitude freedom. Some of these limitations also apply to the F-22.
The Su-35 aircraft enjoys significant advantages over the F-35 in terms of absolute altitude, speed, weapon capacity and weapon release speed. However, maneuverability in the terminal phase of an air to air missile engagement is where the Su-35 enjoys a substantial advantage using integrated thrustered engine control rather than relying solely upon control surfaces in thin air.
That is why the engagement is at high altitude as opposed to denser low altitude air.
This kinematic advantage translates into a reduced no-escape zone calculation for the release of the AIM 120 missile against the Su-35. The maximum release range for an AIM 120 against the Su-35 employing its full range of capabilities is less than 20nm based upon its specific impulse, burn duration (boost and sustain), control surface effectiveness above 50,000ft and susceptibility to countermeasures. Beyond that no-escape zone the AIM 120 missile has less than 5 % chance of hitting the target.
The US DoD had a program to improve the AIM 120 missile using a number of aspects such as additional fuel and 2 stage motor as well as better electronic counter counter measures (ECCM) but these have not delivered as yet.
The Su-35 or indeed any of the modern Su and Mig aircraft can bleed sufficient energy off a coasting AIM 120 missile at high altitude to cause it to reach minimum energy level in less than 15 seconds with a combination of maneuvers.
The current generation of AA-12 missiles are able to be launched effectively from more than 3 times the AIM 120 no-escape zone because of the energy advantage provided at launch, greater specific impulse, burn duration both boost and sustain, (due to larger fuel fraction) and good control surface performance at altitude.
The F-35 has limited kinematic evasive capability against advanced air to air missiles for example, it cannot sustain a 6 G turn at Mach 1 at 40,000ft. And this was why an additional energy based defensive system was designed into the aircraft.
However, this solution is not effective beyond the scanning limits of the DAS and the Russian (and Chinese) technique of launching dissimilar sensored missiles in salvos against adversary aircraft, nor is it inherently reliable. This generally leads to defeating aircraft such as F-35 due to the focus in the defensive cycle being ordered first by the active radar seeker turning on and the passive infra red (IR) sensor being able to achieve lock at twice the range of the radar seeker from both the head on or side against the F-35.
The F-35 now has a large head-on IR signature due to the excessive heat generated by the systems inside the nose radome, in excess to 200C. Its rear plume at military power is visible at over 50 kms to advanced IR sensors.
The reality is that the F-35 in air to air combat against most modern fighters has to cross a large killing zone before attempting to engage a target that can at anytime turn and out run the F-35 engagement zone based upon radar or IR sensor detection plotting.
In most simulations the F-35 is destroyed well before launching its weapons.
http://www.harpoon3pro.com
http://www.agi.com
http://www.computerharpoon.com
http://www.digitalmilitaryart.com
摘译如下：
24架F-35A（各4xAIM120，25mm航炮）对8架苏-35（各6xR77雷达加6xR77红外加2xR73，30mm航炮）
仿真平台：H3 MilSim
设定：澳大利亚东北
- F-35A的速度-升限包线和弹舱开门限制了AIM120的性能，F-15、F-16可以更好地发挥AIM120的性能。
- 苏-35比F-35的速度、升限、导弹发射速度限制、导弹挂载量明显优越，更有利于在高空空战。
- F-35和苏-35的速度-高度差极大地限制了AIM120的不可逃逸区，根据AIM120的发动机比冲、燃烧时间、50000英尺（约15240米）高度时控制面效率和苏-35的电子对抗能力，AIM120最大有效发射距离不超过20海里（37公里）。
- 苏-35（或者任何现代苏或米格）可以通过机动在15秒钟内使AIM120下降到最低能量水平。
- 但从能量水平来说，苏-35的R77比F-35的AIM120高三倍。
- F-35不能在40000英尺（约12200米）以M1做6g持续机动
- 如果苏-35同时发射雷达和红外制导导弹，F-35还要惨。F-35的机头由于AESA而达到200C的温度，军推尾流可以用先进红外在50公里外看到。
结论：F-35在空战中，需要穿越很大的对方杀伤区才能发射自己的AIM120导弹。在大部分仿真设定中，F-35在发射导弹前就被击落。
===============
在一个小时的演示中，不到30分钟时，就有至少5个人离席，但反对党的首席国防批评家留下来了。很难说这个演示是否完全公平、精确，是否有太多的党派政治因素，但至少这个仿真有点内容。硬伤在于用Harpoon 3 Pro的仿真核心，这在本质上是一个高级游戏。不过仿真的数学是一样的，游戏或者“专业”软件的差别或许不在于数学，而在于数据库。关键不在于精确到小数点的结论，而在于定性结论。如果他们的定性结论由于关键假定或者数据而出大错，那应该很容易指出。他们声称2008年兰德仿真得出同样的结果，那个仿真也是只流传于传说中，从来没有看到过实际报告。
通宝推：大漠孤烟远,五藤高庆,每周虎,匿名：1
本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)家园 坐等晨大评粽子机 坐等晨大评粽子机
顺致对晨大的景仰
家园 晨大，问个简单问题哈 F35为什么不用两个发动机呀？我看加个发动机空战性能就能提高一大截。
家园 就是个游戏 就是个游戏，比湾湾扒着武器数据比结果更不靠谱，不能当真。
对阵双方：美国空军（蓝军）vs 中国空军（红军）
地点：澳大利亚东北。(具体地点:蓝军出发地是Brisbane附近的机场，红军出现的地点在Townsville附近。双方直线距离630海里。）
飞机：24 F-35A （4个AIM 120D + 25mm mauser 航炮） vs 8 sukhoi-35s（6个R-77 Adder 主动雷达导引 + 6个R-77 红外导引 + 2个R73 Archer + Gun GSH301 30mm航炮）
空战时间：夜晚
过程：
红军两组su35，每组4架，航向148(基本上沿海岸线向Brisbane方向也就是东南方），高度12000米，速度756.
飞到Mackay到Moranbah一线，蓝军派出F35 4架一组，航向325(西北，迎击红军)，速度472，高度12000米。
双方在80-100海里左右在雷达上发现对方。(13:32:00)
此时F35高度15000米，速度916，航向346。
红军发射主动雷达导引的R-77M-PD,速度2508，航向136，高度15000米。蓝军雷达看到对方导弹来袭，同时发射导弹,然后立刻做机动闪避。（13:37:39)
红军发射红外导引R-77T-PD,速度2508，航向145，高度15000米。此时蓝军一定也发射了导弹，因为4架F35已经没有导弹，接到地面命令返航。
看到一架F35摆脱了导弹。
又两架F35发射全部导弹，接到地面命令返航。(13:38:54)
两架F35发射全部导弹，接到地面命令返航,同时F35做机动闪避对方导弹。(13:39:09)
两架F35发射全部导弹，接到地面命令返航,F35雷达看到对方导弹来袭。(13:39:36)
红军导弹信息主动雷达导引的R-77M-PD,速度2508，航向162，高度15000米。
此时空中有非常多导弹在飞。
F35采取释放诱饵和电子干扰措施。
7架su35返航，航向322，高度15000米，速度1150。
5架F35发射全部导弹，接到地面命令返航。
F35发现对方导弹来袭。(13:42:45)
看到一架F35，170血被打掉14。尾部被集中。引擎9血调到2血。控制还剩4血。机身还剩9血。
所以8架su35返航。
看到至少12架F35返航。
结果：蓝军损失5架F35.发射2枚AIM120D。
红军没有飞机损失，发射26枚R-77M-PD,26枚R-77T-PD，1个flare，1个chaff。
演示者语：这个结果的变数很大，需要玩许多次才能看出结论。
本帖一共被 2 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)家园 晨大现在是才思泉涌，佳作不断。 家园 澳大利亚的F-35怎样才能遇到SU-35？ 印尼从俄国买SU-35？
家园 答案请看这里 家园 印度尼西亚已经拥有Su27和Su30了 
外链图片需谨慎，可能会被源头改
外链图片需谨慎，可能会被源头改印度尼西亚空军拥有2架Su27SK和3架Su27SKM，其中Su27SKM是多任务战斗机，相当于单座型Su30。除了Su27印尼还订购了3架Su30MK2，这些飞机已经在2009年到货，此外印尼还打算再订购6架Su30。
现在算起来。东盟的越南，马来西亚，印尼都拥有了自己的Su30战机，这三个国家也是东盟中实力最强的国家
资料来源于WIKI
家园 马来西亚和印尼的苏27、30，米格29不必担心 维护糟糕得很。
家园 据我所知马空军的米格29即将退役 因为机体寿命的问题，马空军的米格29即将退役，当年与米格29一同引进的还有8架F/A-18D，波音仍然在对其进行技术升级
外链图片需谨慎，可能会被源头改看来他们的状态还不错
马来西亚的Su30MKM源自印度的Su30MKI，带推力矢量发动机。如果拿枭龙和Su30MKI做对比的话，应该说Su30MKI现在已经有了第一个第三方海外客户，而枭龙目前还没有。
大马和印尼的Su30的维护情况我不是很清楚。据我所知印度已经开始接手越南空军的SU30的维护工作，我估计印尼和大马如果对俄国人的维护服务不满意的话也会转向寻求印度的帮忙。