五千年(敝帚自珍)

主题:在以中国公民四死六伤,凶手到底是谁? -- 一双草鞋

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家园 当年耶路撒冷有犹有穆

然后十字军来了,说他们都是异教徒,管你是犹是穆,全杀了。

二战之前是一战,奥斯曼土耳其并没有大规模屠犹,一战之后奥斯曼土耳其亡了,阿拉伯人分裂出来,也没有大规模屠犹。倒是欧洲在屠犹。

一千多年来都是基督徒在排犹屠犹,穆民说不上多善良,但是给犹太人生活空间是真的。所以说穆民要多读伊索寓言,农夫和蛇的故事。

对于毒蛇就是要打死,不能留。

通宝推:真离,
家园 重点是事实

你到现在也没有提供【Kan广播采访录音】。

用更多的马甲反复纠缠,并没有改变这个现实。

家园 谁主张谁举证

你主张的【以色列国家广播公司( Kan) 】怎么变成BBC了?

难道BBS比NPR看起来更像KAN?我是没看出来。

家园 【凤兮凤兮】和【淡淡忧伤 】不是自己官宣互为马甲吗?

我和铁手是给你留面子。铁手说,

比如,有人总是攻击别人住地下室,...,即使有人过的不如你如意,你能帮一手最好,就算不愿意帮,至少不应该污辱攻击别人。

你弄那么多马甲,我不愿意揭穿是可怜你而已。为什么过去的认证不算了,要另起炉灶?还不是里面马甲太多了。我不攻击你住地下室,而且响应号召,帮一把手,不动你不多的收入渠道。但是你也别太过分了。

一段时间内不会实现显示发帖来源只是【初步决定】,是为了让你收敛。你要是更猖狂了,没准哪天就成了引蛇出洞。

好自为之。

家园 我觉得你一时清醒一时糊涂

犹太人在巴勒斯坦的存在,不用再重复了吧。中国都和以色列建交了。你还待怎样。

家园 你和铁手?你食不食油饼?

怎么又遇到一个神经病,完全不知道你在说什么

你是马甲,我打击你了么

通宝推:淡淡忧伤,凤兮凤兮,
家园 再怜悯一下。至于BBC,你是在打”一双草鞋“的脸吗?

再怜悯一下,还是学不会起码的求证能力。

至于BBC,是你的疑似马甲”一双草鞋“自己的话:

如果你们拿出你们声称的信息源的原始链接,cnn也好,npr也罢,kan当然也行,都可以讨论。如果死活拿不出来,只用什么知乎、twitter这种谣言集散地的某个无名氏帖子当证据,恕我不会再回应同样的话题。

你是在打”一双草鞋“的脸吗?

——我真有点赞同你了,“知乎贴出的Kan采访录音和X截屏”你不信,BBC、NPR复述的Kan采访你”一双草鞋“就会信——这叫什么精神?

第二,继续问:你们是怎样把“知乎贴出的Kan广播采访录音和X截屏”偷换成“把知乎当成Kan”的?——这叫什么行为?

谁主张谁举证,你来举证一下我”把知乎当成Kan“的证据好吗?别又是生硬偷换栽赃吧?

通宝推:心远地自偏,亮子,
家园 日本人在满洲国的存在,不用再重复了吧。23国都和满洲国建交了

犹太人在巴勒斯坦的存在,不用再重复了吧。中国都和以色列建交了。你还待怎样。

日本人在满洲国的存在,不用再重复了吧。23国都和满洲国建交了。你还待怎样。

家园 你是凤兮凤兮的马甲,马甲之心度君子之腹要不得

我的原则是我的原则,我不去攀扯其他ID。我的原则是:

你说是来自KAN的消息就要贴来自KAN的证据。而你们鸡蛙乱叫很久了,到目前为止还没有拿出这个证据。你自己都没有亲眼在KAN看到的东西,非要说是,还不注明其他来源,就是造谣。

这个你指的是 @凤兮凤兮 + @淡淡忧伤 。你们用再多的马甲宝推,也无法改变现实。

家园 吴京是不是也能让你PTSD
家园 所以在你眼里,中国是敌国,巴勒斯坦才是你的祖国?

中国承认以色列,就是代表中国人承认以色列。你不愿意当中国人请滚出西西河。你个垃圾。

家园 犹太人是穆民的蛇,是中国人的朋友

因为穆民有一个算一个,都是中国人的敌人。

就应该在中国全部公立食堂,强制推广猪肉,不吃的一律只有公民义务,没有公民权力。小学配餐猪肉,不吃的打入另册不得升学,毕业就去屠宰场分解猪肉。

家园 作为自豪的正白旗

吴京倒是让很多对嘉定三屠、扬州十日耿耿于怀的南方汉人PTSD。

我对他不重视。没觉得他比贾乃亮强在哪了。

家园 铁手官方认证的马甲开始自称君子了。以粉继续全无逻辑。

哎吆,铁手官方认证的马甲开始自称君子了。

做啥不好,非得做个伪君子。

还和你的疑似马甲”一双草鞋“一个德行,辩论不过就拉黑,以为显贴需花多我就发不出了?

好好做你伪君子这个有前途的职业吧。

二、以粉继续全无逻辑。

1、你说谁主张谁举证,你来举证一下我”把知乎当成Kan“的证据好吗?除了生硬偷换栽赃你还会啥?

继续问:你们是怎样把“知乎贴出的Kan广播采访录音和X截屏”偷换成“把知乎当成Kan”的?——这叫什么行为?

2、鉴于你打了”一双草鞋“的脸,驳斥了“一双草鞋”“知乎贴出的Kan采访录音和X截屏”就不信,CNN、NPR复述的Kan采访”一双草鞋“就会信的狗屎逻辑,我就勉强回一下你的新逻辑——“来自KAN的消息就要贴来自KAN的证据”。

原文写的很清楚:

值得注意的是,该采访并未包含在10 月 15 日播出的Haboker Hazeh网络版中。由于其爆炸性,它很可能已被审查。

——以色列国家广播公司在网络版上,屏蔽了此次广播采访。

但至少有一个希伯来语账户在Twitter上发布了部分采访内容,并指责kan充当“为哈马斯服务的媒体”。

在采访录音已经流传和10月15日一篇文章后,kan也上传了录音(链接在下文电子起义文章中一点即是)。

同时,亚斯明·波拉特 (Yasmin Porat)还接受了以色列报纸Maariv的采访,10月9日发表(链接在下文电子起义文章中一点即是)。

基布兹幸存者说,以色列军队射杀了自己的平民

Yasmin Porat, a survivor of the bloodshed at Kibbutz Be’eri, near the boundary with Gaza, says many Israeli civilians were killed by Israeli forces.

Update, 23 October

The Electronic Intifada is now able to publish the entire interview with Yasmin Porat, the Kibbutz Be’eri survivor who told Israeli radio that Israeli security forces “undoubtedly” killed a large number of their own civilians following the Hamas assault on 7 October.

When this article was originally published on 15 October, a recording of the interview was not available on the website of Israeli state broadcaster Kan and was not included in the online edition of Haboker Hazeh for that day, the program that interviewed Porat.

Following the publication of this article, the full interview was uploaded by Kan. It includes several extra minutes that were edited out of the version of the interview that we had originally obtained and translated.

In the full-length interview, Porat states that the Palestinian fighters – who she says treated her and the other Israeli civilians “humanely” – intended to “kidnap us to Gaza. Not to murder us.”

She adds that “after we were there for two hours with the abductors, the police arrive. A gun battle takes place that our police started.”

You can listen to the full interview with English subtitles here in the video below. A full transcript is at the bottom of this page.

Also of note is that Mondoweiss on 22 October published a story based on accounts in Israeli media indicating that Israeli forces were responsible for many Israeli civilian and military deaths following the 7 October Palestinian offensive.

This includes the shocking revelation that some Israeli civilians were alive for up to two days before Israeli forces killed them, along with Palestinian fighters who were holding them.

Israel’s Haaretz newspaper on 20 October published an interview – only in its Hebrew edition – with a man called Tuval who lived in Kibbutz Be’eri, but who was away on 7 October. Tuval’s partner was however killed in the events.

Haaretz reports: “According to him [Tuval], only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions – including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages – did the IDF [Israeli army] complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”

This testimony would seem to indicate that many Israeli captives were still alive on Monday, 9 October, Mondoweiss observes, a full two days after the events of Saturday, 7 October.

“While it might be understandable if captives had been killed in the hectic crossfire of an initial Israeli response to the attack on the 7th, this account would seem to indicate that the decision to assault the kibbutz and everyone inside was made as a clear military calculation,” Mondoweiss adds.

Here’s the interview with Yasmin Porat:

Original article

An Israeli woman who survived the Hamas assault on settlements near the Gaza boundary on 7 October says Israeli civilians were “undoubtedly” killed by their own security forces.

It happened when Israeli forces engaged in fierce gun battles with Palestinian fighters in Kibbutz Be’eri and fired indiscriminately at both the fighters and their Israeli prisoners.

“They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she told Israeli radio. “There was very, very heavy crossfire” and even tank shelling.

The woman, 44-year-old mother of three Yasmin Porat, said that prior to that, she and other civilians had been held by the Palestinians for several hours and treated “humanely.” She had fled the nearby “Nova” rave.

A recording of her interview, from the radio program Haboker Hazeh (“This Morning”) hosted by Aryeh Golan on state broadcaster Kan, has been circulating on social media.

The interview has been translated by The Electronic Intifada. You can listen to it with English subtitles in this video and a transcript is at the end of this article:

Notably, the interview is not included in the online version of Haboker Hazeh for 15 October, the episode in which it apparently aired.

It may well have been censored due to its explosive nature.

Porat, who is from Kabri, a settlement near the Lebanese border, undoubtedly experienced terrible things and saw many noncombatants killed. Her own partner, Tal Katz, is among the dead.

However, her account undermines Israel’s official story of deliberate, wanton murder by the Palestinian fighters.

Although it no longer appears on the Kan website, there can be little doubt about the recording’s authenticity.

At least one Hebrew-language account posted part of the interview on Twitter, now officially called X, and accused Kan of functioning as “media in the service of Hamas.”

תקשורת בשירות החמאס:

ניצולה שמספרת שהמחבלים לא פגעו בה והרבה מאהובינו נהרגו ע"י חיילינו, מופצת כעת ברשתות החמאס:

"השדר הישראלי, אריה גולן, ראיין עדת ראייה שנכחה בקונצרט בהתנחלות בארי. ההתנגדות לא רצתה להרוג אותנו, אלא טיפלה בנו בצורה אתית והרגיעה את מצב הטרור שבו חיינו"

🤬🤬🤬 pic.twitter.com/Gq2pRm5YBW

— Jack Russell 🐶 (@JackRussell2022) October 15, 2023

Porat also gave her account to the Israeli newspaper Maariv.

However, the Maariv story, published on 9 October, makes no specific mention of civilians being killed by Israeli forces.

And in a half-hour interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on Thursday, Porat speaks of intense gunfire after Israeli forces arrived. Porat herself received a bullet in the thigh.

Treated “humanely”

Not only does Porat tell Kan that Israelis were killed in the heavy counterattack by Israeli security forces, but she says she and other captive civilians were well treated by the Palestinian fighters.

Porat had been attending the “Nova” rave when the Hamas assault began with missiles and motorized paragliders. She and her partner Tal Katz escaped by car to nearby Kibbutz Be’eri where many of the events she describes in her media interviews took place.

According to Porat speaking to Maariv, she and Katz initially sought refuge in the house of a couple called Adi and Hadas Dagan. After the Palestinian fighters found them they were all taken to another house, where eight people were already being held captive and one person was dead.

Porat said that the wife of the dead man “told us that when they [the Hamas fighters] tried to enter, the guy tried to prevent them from entering and grabbed the door. They shot at the door and he was killed. They did not execute them.”

“They did not abuse us. They treated us very humanely,” Porat explained to a surprised Golan in the Kan radio interview.

“By that I mean they guard us,” she said. “They give us something to drink here and there. When they see we are nervous they calm us down. It was very frightening but no one treated us violently. Luckily nothing happened to me like what I heard in the media.”

“They were very humane towards us,” Porat said in her Channel 12 interview. She recalled that one Palestinian fighter who spoke Hebrew, “told me, ‘Look at me well, we’re not going to kill you. We want to take you to Gaza. We are not going to kill you. So be calm, you’re not going to die.’ That’s what he told me, in those words.”

“I was calm because I knew nothing would happen to me,” she added.

“They told us that we would not die, that they wanted to take us to Gaza and that the next day they would return us to the border,” Porat told Maariv.

In the Channel 12 interview, Porat elaborates that although the Palestinian fighters all had loaded weapons, she never saw them shoot captives or threaten them with their guns.

In addition to providing the captives with drinking water, she said the fighters let them go outside to the lawn because it was hot, especially as the electricity was cut.

Young and scared

About eight hours after the start of the Hamas attack and about half an hour after Porat’s calls to the police, Israeli forces arrived and chaos ensued, Porat told Kan.

“At first there was no [Israeli] security force with us,” Porat recalled, noting that her first call to the Israeli police went unanswered. “We were the ones who called the police, together with the abductors because the abductors wanted the police to arrive. Because their objective was to kidnap us to Gaza.”

“They understand that soldiers will not kill hostages. So they want to come out with us alive and for the police to permit it,” Porat told Channel 12.

Though the Israeli captives numbered only a dozen, Porat was instructed to tell Israeli police that 40 of them were being held by the Hamas fighters, who themselves numbered between 40 and 50 men mostly in their 20s, by Porat’s estimate. They themselves were young and scared, she told Channel 12.

A fighter Porat described as a commander in his 30s asked to speak to the police and was put on with an Arabic-speaking Israeli officer.

After their brief conversation, the four dozen or so Palestinian fighters and their dozen Israeli prisoners awaited the arrival of the army, with some of the group spilling outside to the garden for relief from the afternoon heat.

Hails of bullets, mortars and tank shells

Israeli forces announced their arrival with a hail of gunfire, catching the fighters and their Israeli captives by surprise.

“We were outside and suddenly there was a volley of bullets at us from the [Israeli unit] YAMAM. We all started running to find cover, Porat told Channel 12.”

Porat said she surrendered to the Israeli soldiers half an hour into the fierce gun battle that consisted of “tens and hundreds and thousands of bullets and mortars flying in the air,” and that one of the Palestinian fighters, a commander, decided to surrender and used her in effect as a human shield.

“He starts to disrobe,” Porat recalled to Kan’s Aryeh Golan. “He calls to me and he starts to leave the house with me, under fire. At that time I yell to the [Israeli commandos] … when they can hear me, to stop firing.”

“And then they heard me and stopped firing,” she added. “I see people from the kibbutz on the lawn. There are five or six hostages lying on the ground outside. Just like sheep to the slaughter, between the shooting of our commandos and the terrorists.”

“The terrorists shot them?” Golan asks.

“No, they were killed by the crossfire,” Porat responds. “Understand there was very, very heavy crossfire.”

Golan presses: “So our forces may have shot them?”

“Undoubtedly,” the former captive responds, and adds, “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages because there was very, very heavy crossfire.”

“After insane crossfire, two tank shells were shot into the house. It’s a small kibbutz house, nothing big,” Porat explains.

Porat and the man who took her captive both survived. The Palestinian was taken prisoner by Israeli forces. But according to Porat, almost everyone else in the settlement was killed, wounded or missing, believed to have been taken to Gaza.

Porat told Kan she lost dozens of friends who had been at the rave – people she would regularly see at parties in Israel’s trance scene.

“I’m angry at the state, I’m angry at the army,” Porat told Maariv. “For 10 hours the kibbutz was abandoned.”

The joint American-Israeli effort to paint Hamas as worse than ISIS in order to justify Israel’s unfolding genocide against the civilian population in Gaza depends on the international public not seeing or hearing accounts like Porat’s.

。。。。。。

观看有关 10 月 7 日 YouTube 不想让您看到的视频

再后,“一双草鞋”比信他爹还信任的CNN也采访了亚斯明·波拉特 (Yasmin Porat)。

最后,请让我再鄙视一下你和你的疑似马甲“一双草鞋”连初中生都不如的求证能力和鼻屎大的脑仁子。

家园 你用抗日战争来比附巴以冲突是错误的

东北是中国的。日本人凭什么大量移民。如果说少量移民得到中国政府的允许,那么后来的垦殖团,就是经济侵略。

巴勒斯坦地不是阿拉伯人独占的。历史上就不是。上世纪初犹太人大规模移民的时候也不是。

你的帖子有根本性的错误。

还有那个自作聪明的潜望镜,任意用历史事件比附现实,放大炮,放空炮。我都懒得理他。

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