主题：【求助】后天跟zd的洋鬼子辩论，附上藏青会的宣传资料求助 -- 不动如山孙元良
家园 【求助】后天跟zd的洋鬼子辩论，附上藏青会的宣传资料求助 英语文章比较长，为了避免我翻译的疏漏和失真，斗胆将部分原文贴上（摘自藏青会文宣）并附上自己一点辩论的思路。
原文可参见外链出处
"Tibet has always 'belonged' to China"。。。 The Qing Dynasty (1644-1911): Beijing is opposed to past Western and Japanese imperialism, but sees nothing wrong in claiming Tibet based on the Manchu Qing Empire. This claim doesn't stand up either. The Manchu rulers of China were Buddhists, and Tibet's Dalai Lamas and the Manchu emperors had a special priest-patron relationship called Cho-Yon whereby China committed to providing protection to the largely demilitarized Tibetan state. Chinese nationalists may see this as sovereignty, but it wasn't. As the relationship became strained, China at various times exercised influence and sent armies into Tibet - but so did Nepal during this time. China expanded its influence in Tibet after 1720, as a powerful country dealing with a weaker neighbor. It later tried to occupy Tibet by force, violating the Cho-Yon relationship, but with the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911, Tibetans expelled the Chinese and the 13th Dalai Lama proclaimed Tibet's complete independence. Until the Chinese invasion of 1950-51, Tibet enjoyed full sovereignty as defined under international law: it had a territory, a population, a government exercising effective control, and the ability to enter into international relations (such as the 1914 Simla Convention with Britain, trade delegations to the West, and neutrality in World War II).这比较好反驳，查一下明史对西藏有效统治的记载就可以，原文中从元史略到清史，看来有破绽可钻。而且清朝有驻藏大臣，有金瓶掣签制度，到民国有藏汉委员会，足以说明中国中央政府对西藏的主权有历史事实的支撑。至于说到with the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911, Tibetans expelled the Chinese and the 13th Dalai Lama proclaimed Tibet's complete independence则可以与伪满洲国相提并论，这是一个地方政府的反叛，作为中国的固有领土，中国主权和领土的变更必须得到中央政府的承认才可以生效。任何中国的地方政府都会有自己的固定边界，人口，有效管制的能力，以及对外交往的可能，但以上要素均不构成独立的正当和充分理由。正如中国在抗战前处于长期军阀割据状态并不能说明割据地区有独立的正当性。
The crucial subtext of Beijing's condemnation of Tibet's "feudal" past is a classic colonialist argument that the target's alleged backwardness serves as a justification for invasion and occupation. These are the politics of the colonist, in which the "native" is dehumanized, robbed of agency, and debased in order to make occupation more palatable or even necessary and "civilizing." China has no more right to occupy a "backward" Tibet than Britain had to carry the "white man's burden" in India or Hong Kong.正如国际社会所承认的，西藏和香港均属于中国不可分割的领土，基于此事实现在的中华人民共和国政府作为继承中国法统的唯一合法政府，有权利和义务在包括西藏在内的中国领土上履行政府的统治，包括发展经济，提高人民的文化生活水平等。
To imply that Tibetans are incapable of developing their own country is insulting, condescending and chauvinistic. Nor is it proper to compare apples and oranges: Tibet five decades ago cannot be compared with today, since a free Tibet would not have existed in a vacuum in the intervening years. One only has to look at the model success of the Tibetan refugee community to wonder how much better life in Tibet could be if Tibetans were actually in charge of their own country.这段感觉比较难对付。基本思路是，近代以降，任何一个国家和地区都不可能活在真空中，所以a free Tibet would not have existed in a vacuum in the intervening years没有任何现实意义。model success of the Tibetan refugee community只能用以说明当地的经济实力和当地政府的能力。当然，包括西藏在内的中国所创造的发展奇迹是中华56个民族共同努力，群策群力的结果，藏族同胞当然有能力与各兄弟民族创造西藏更美好的明天。但是，不顾西藏安定团结的事实，鼓吹国家分裂，鼓吹族群对立，民族仇恨，甚至鼓吹暴力活动，对西藏经济的发展和人民生活的安乐没有裨益。
好累。。。土鳖抗铁牛。。。
家园 继续，藏青会文宣的反驳 想说一点就是，现在西藏分离势力是受西方反华势力系统训练的，在文宣方面绝对不容小视，在反驳藏独的文宣时不能一味指责他们搞奴隶制，达赖是奴隶主。相反，政教合一，鼓吹暴力和民族仇恨，民族自决原则低于国家主权和领土完整才是他们的死穴。
The 13th century: Beijing claims that Tibet became part of China during the Yuan Dynasty in the mid-13th century. The Yuan was actually a Mongol empire, with Chinggis Khan and his descendents conquering China and nations from Korea to Eastern Europe. For China to claim Tibet based on this would be like India claiming Burma since both were part of the British Empire. The Mongols never ruled Tibet as an administrative region of China, and Tibet was given special treatment because Tibet's Sakya lamas were the religious teachers of the Mongol emperors. By the fall of the Mongol Yuan Dynasty, Tibet had again become in charge of its own affairs.这一段纯粹就是忽悠外国人的。蒙古族是中国５６个少数民族之一，在元朝灭亡后，在明，清，民国等漫长的岁月里，内外蒙古均是中国的领土。外蒙古的独立是二战后由当时的国民政府所批准和承认的。但即使这样，内蒙古的蒙古族人口远超于外蒙古。以上事实表明元朝政府是少数民族建立的中国皇权政府。Sakya lamas were the religious teachers of the Mongol emperors即表明Sakya lamas是皇帝的臣子，因为在古代中国皇权是至高无上的。By the fall of the Mongol Yuan Dynasty, Tibet had again become in charge of its own affairs不能说明西藏独立的合理性，因为中央皇权崩溃后地方割据是正常现象，但正如前面所述，地方割据的事实不能说明该地方有独立的合法性。
1951: China claims sovereignty over Tibet from before 1951, but this is an important date. This is when after defeating Tibet's small army, China imposed the Seventeen Point Agreement on the Tibetan government, demanding that Tibet "return" to Chinese sovereignty (raising the uncomfortable question of why such a surrender treaty was needed unless Tibet was a country independent of China in the first place). This Agreement was legally invalid because of duress, but the Tibetan government had little choice but to try to coexist with China under its provisions. It became clear that Beijing had no intention to live up to its promises, and the Tibetan government fully repudiated the document during China's brutal suppression of the 1959 Tibetan uprising.作为当时内战的胜利方，中华人民共和国政府是在履行中国唯一合法政府的义务，对中国领土西藏派驻军队。十七条协定经由中央政府和西藏地方政府签字生效，具有法定效力。十七条协定第一句“西藏民族是中国境内具有悠久历史的民族之一”，何有西藏回归中国之说？第二条：西藏地方政府积极协助中国人民解放军进入西藏，巩固国防，说明驻守西藏是中国人民解放军的权利和义务。１９５１年西藏暴乱，恰恰是西藏地方政府推行西藏独立，背弃了十七条协定。
Yes China has developed Tibet, but urban Tibetans only benefit marginally and rural Tibetans barely benefit at all. Tibetans without Chinese language skills and connections are left to fend for themselves as second-class citizens in their own country. China's own statistics show Tibet's per capita income falls below that of all Chinese provinces, and vast areas of rural Tibet lack basic healthcare and education. Beijing's overarching priority is tying Tibet to China by moving in Chinese colonists to the urban areas and creating a Tibetan economy dependent on resource-exploitation and state subsidies. It is spending huge amounts of money on infrastructure to solidify its control, such as a railroad to Lhasa on which Beijing will spend more than what it has put towards healthcare and education in the entire 50+ years it has occupied Tibet. Some scholars such as Hong Kong-based Barry Sautman argue that these policies are beneficial to Tibetans and aren't colonialism because China isn't following the same demographic strategy as previous colonial powers. Nevertheless, Tibet today is a vast resource-extraction colony and its urban areas are filled with Chinese settlers. According to the UNDP in 2000, real GDP per capita in Tibet is $169, as opposed to $680 for China as a whole and $4,000 in Shanghai.Adult Literacy is 38% as opposed to 81% in China. Maternal mortality is 50 per 10,000 as opposed to 9 per 10,000 in China. All these show that China's much-vaunted "development" is skewed by political priorities (securing control, building infrastructure) and isn't benefiting Tibetans
这一段要慢慢找统计数据来驳斥。但基本思路是，１。中国是个幅员广大，人口众多的发展中国家，由于地理位置，人文水平，资源分布的不一致，在改革开放过程中出现全国各地区经济发展不平衡是正常现象，西藏的人均GDP远远小于上海的人均GDP只能说明上述现象，不能说明中国政府是西藏的殖民者，因为其他数个的内陆省份的经济与文化发展水平跟上海也相差甚远，还必须考虑到西藏没有自己的工业，与外界交通不便等因素。2.中国公民有权在中国任何省份定居和工作，西藏的外来人口的增多同时也是市场规律的作用，西藏的移民为西藏的现代化作出了贡献，也给西藏当地群众的生活带来改善。同样地，藏族同胞有权在中国任何省份定居，学习，工作。
歇一会。。。
家园 达赖是在中国政府任职的 看atene:教你一步步反藏独 - 新添揭露歪嘴西媒内容3/21
1、不总是有人说西藏是中国1949年“才”占领的吗，那就来点史料：1653年清朝皇帝确立了对西藏宗教领袖达赖和班禅的册封制度及其继承人灵童“转世”的金瓶。（In 1653, Qing Emperor offically gave the title Dalai to the head of Gelug Schools of Buddhism in Tibet. Since then any reincarnation aka successor of Dalai has to be approved and confirmed by Chinese central government.)现在的达赖也是中国政府认定(officiated)的，是1940年由当时执政的民国政府认定。
2、藏独不是说西藏不是被中国领土、达赖被zf逼走的吗，达赖可一直在中国政府里任有公职滴：1953年达赖被推选为中华人民共和国佛教协会荣誉会长，1954年为达赖喇嘛当选为第一届全国人民代表大会常务委员会副委员长（In 1954 current Dalai Lama became Deputy Chairman of the Standing Committe of the National People's Congress aka the parliment of PRC),
直到59年出逃前都在中国政府管辖下的西藏自治区任职。
SO, if Tibet had been an independent country then, how came a "foreigner" like Dalai could hold such an important position in the parliment of PRC?
家园 去看徐明旭的《阴谋与虔诚》，绝对弹药充足。 家园 《阴谋与虔诚》果然弹药充足 但是个人有几点觉得不妥当的地方
１.徐作为自由作家，指责藏人恩将仇报算是一家之言，但在国外宣扬反藏独思想一定要注意政治正确。徐的叙述太感性化，很容易煽动民族矛盾。
２.藏独也会打民主牌，恰恰这一点很难应付，因为他们宣称独立后会实行民主，这点在西方很有市场。应付的思路有：民主与发展是整个中国努力的方向，历史上法理上没有任何地方因为“不够民主”而有权从主权国家独立。藏独势力现在鼓吹民族仇恨，暴力活动，宣扬驱逐外族，没有任何证据显示他们在西藏推行民主政治而不是民粹政治的可能性。
家园 他们放火焚烧清真寺的事情是个好弹药 迫害金刚宗的事情也是。到底谁在维护宗教信仰自由，谁在破坏他人的宗教信仰自由……
家园 最后一点有必要驳么？ 独立出去能不能过上更好的日子，跟法理上有没有资格拿走这块地宣告独立建国是两码事啊。
一定要驳的话个人想到以下两条：
1、model success of the Tibetan refugee community这个是特殊情况。达兰萨拉跟西藏全境不具备可比性。前者才十来万人口，一年光是美国难民署的援助就是2M美刀，一个人快2000美金。更别提还有别的了。但是整个藏民一共是接近500W，现在是北京的财政每年几十个亿丢进去。假如说独立，这个钱谁来出？
2、他们要求从大藏区驱逐非藏人，那么这部分人民的财产、生活是不是受到了侵害？谁来提供需要的巨额补偿姑且不说，谁有权力这样迫害几百万和平居民？更别说赶走了这些人他们连肉都没得吃——回族屠夫也在被驱逐之列啊。