主题：T34和KV坦克在美国阿伯丁试验场的评估 -- donkeyking
家园 呵呵，刀枪入库马放南山。 纳粹德国后期，战略上走下坡，直到灭亡。战略后方遭到破坏性轰炸，资源直到枯竭，造出的坦克，数量和质量，可想而知。哪里还有胜利可言。
战后六十多年，并无直接的战争对于坦克的需求，德国也没认真打过一仗。
像样的豹II，也不过是借了冷战的光。
没有“需求”，也就没有了像样的坦克。对于德国，是福是祸，见仁见智。
但是，就世界上最大的坦克对决而言，库尔斯克是个里程碑。美国坦克至今没有这样的战场经验。
就闪击战而言，是终结堑壕战的划时代的战争创举。今天人们在面对航母和空军制胜论，直接的“创举”，就是所谓的“太空战”。而对于大国代理的，现实中的非对称战争，至今束手无策。
可见，要拿出真正的战争创举，并非易事。后人站在历史的肩膀上对闪击战轻而言之，不是很可取的态度。
而且，闪击战是战役规模的创举。德国在前苏联的失败，更大的是战略上的不可原谅的失误。加诸气候，这个战争幸运之神不站在德军一边。否则，莫斯科大战，斯大林格勒大战，只要一个失利，战争的天平倒向何方，还很难说。而这些大战，不是闪击战，是典型的大城市攻坚战。
家园 说得好，献花
家园 四号的确是不错的坦克 从头用到尾，算是老忠实了。德国人的闪电战后来苏联人吃透了，就连战术上也几乎没有什么胜绩了，参见库尔斯科战役。装备精良的党卫军装甲师和几个精锐国防军装甲师，几天之内突破的速度如同蜗牛一般。
家园 小BUG一个 温度处理？应该是热处理吧？
家园 为什么直到二战结束时， 在德、苏、美三家中美国坦克是最差的？
家园 这个说法是错的 无论炮、装甲、动力，英美集团要强于德、苏，从2战至今都如此……
2战时期美军的任务是要全球部署，从这个角度看jumbo是最好的，但被陆军的官僚耽误了……而且美军在欧洲作战，实际装甲部队面临的压力并没有地摊文学里说的那么大……所以他们没面临那么大的换装压力……人家有的火炮、飞机、步兵反坦克装备……
家园 主要是被美陆军中的官僚主义拖延了 M4的种种改型性能跟Pzkpfw IV的各种改型性能基本相当（如果不提变态的萤火虫也不考虑后来的超级谢尔曼），美军坦克对苏德坦克主要的缺陷是战争大部分时间缺乏对应苏军斯大林2、德军黑豹和虎/虎王等矛利盾坚的重型坦克。
实际上英美的装甲技术是不差的，火炮技术更在德国之上，譬如著名的萤火虫上装的英国17磅炮。二战美陆军很晚才装备与苏德相当的重型坦克的主要原因是美陆军高层的官僚主义。
M26潘兴跟Pzkpfw V黑豹同样是42年开始研制，主要指标基本相当（黑豹发动机功率大些）
但是黑豹43年就服役了，潘兴拖到45年2月才送到欧洲。这么巨大的差别在于德国直接面对着东线上T34恐怖，而美军高层直到阿登之前还一直盲目的认为M4的短75mm炮足以应付任何敌军坦克，M4改进型的试制和装备工作被一再拖延
In early 1943 the Armored Command had felt that the war would be concluded with the M4 medium. This resulted in the improvements in crew safety and reliability of the M4. Armored Command also didn't want a heavy tank because of its size and weight.1 However, after the Battle of the Bulge, they changed their minds.1Army Ground Forces however wanted 1,000 of the T26 and 1,000 of the lighter T25. The T26 was to have a 76 mm and the T25 a 75 mm gun. The Armored Command didn't want either of these vehicles but did want the 90 mm gun.
实际上潘兴的设计是很不错的。阿登之后10辆潘兴被送到前线，试射的时候技术员在500米外放了一顶德国钢盔，首发命中。后来美军给潘兴换了新发动机改名叫M46巴顿，换个炮塔又出了M47巴顿，而后在潘兴的设计基础上改进又出了M48巴顿和M60巴顿。同期铁幕对面的苏联坦克都换了三四茬了。
家园 不会吧，有什么特别的证据吗？ 我觉得M4坦克很好呀
家园 这T-34/76该不是战争期间应急生产的简化产品吧 我不太相信所谓美国人干脆自己造了一辆T-34的说法，测绘仿制的工作量是很大的，如果只是研究性能完全没有这个必要。
刚好以前研究美国某情报部门网站时保存了这么一段。
Back during WW II, as part of the Lend Lease program, we suppplied the Russians with all manner of miltary equipment. Part of this deal was that we demanded and got samples of Russian armor. We got a T 34/76 tank, a KV 1 Tank, an SU 100 and one other combat vehicle with the iron clad promise that we would not cut it apart. Once the tanks were safely back in the United States, they were thorougly gone over. A side plate was cut from the turret for test and evaluation of the metallurgy. The tank wound up in the old Ordnance museum and some time after the war a team of visiting Russian dignitaries was taken on a tour of the museum. When they saw the tank had been cut open, they raised "Holy Hell" in the words of a former Technical Intelligence officer. It did however give our Ordnance designers a good idea of what Russian tanks were made of.
It also caused the Ordnance dpartment to realize that our 2.36" rocket
launcher was in effective against Russian tanks.
倒是朝鲜战争时的T34/85有美国造的传闻，来源大概是如下。
The "first" T34/85 tank was "recovered", rather than captured.
Apparently, it was driving down a railroad track (the only open route
thru some of the Korean mountain passes) in the dark & ran into a blown
bridge & dropped 14-20 ft into a stream bed. It was not "readily
visible" from the air, so it escaped the attention of the USAF, which
"destroyed", by bombing, several tanks 4-5 times. This statement is
based on the # of tanks REPORTED as being destroyed VS the actual
account of tanks located & examined (CHUCKWAGONed) by TI personnel. Our
valiant heroes of the 528th envisioned parades & medals, etc. for
returning the tank to CONUS. Instead, they were greeted by a very irate
0-6, at the dock, & w/o ceremony, shipped back to Korea, by air. They
had left 8th Army w/ no TI capability. They were informed that there
would be no future escorting of CEM.
The T34/85 tank that was sent back to the states for display in the
Washington area. It came back by slow boat and this produced howls from
the ACSI.(Assistant Chief of Staff-Intelligence) He wanted it faster
than slow boat from Korea. After being put on display in Washington, it
was sent to Chrysler Engineering for an in-depth technical analysis. I
have reviewed copy No 2 of their final report. It was found that the
clutch plates were made by Ford (I think it was Ford). The CIA funded an
in-depth study of all captured Soviet tanks and it was found that most
had the clutch plates made in America.
家园 献花，谢谢您给的资料 我翻译的文章可能是一位苏联人写的，因为在文中“我们”指的是苏联坦克，坦率地说有一些东西我没有看明白，机械上的很多术语我也不太懂。
我觉得在战争状态下苏联对坦克的生产进行一些简化是完全有可能的，比如说对钢材的热处理，和某些部件选用的钢材种类要求降低了。
关于美制T34，我觉得可能是美国对一辆T34做了大改动，来验证自己当初的结论。
最后，在二战的时候美苏之间武器交流还是很多的，美国也曾经提供了一辆M26给苏联，让他们熟悉自己的装备。
家园 T34/76是前期采用76.2mm主炮的型号 与此相对的T34/85是1943年遇到虎豹以后改进，采用85mm炮的版本
外观上前者是小脑袋，后者是大脑袋
至于粗制滥造一说，两者应该都有过，后期型为采用大威力火炮改动了原设计，炮塔内部空间可能更糟糕一些