主题：美国WASP统治的衰落？ -- 晨枫
家园 But again Many empires are cultural, i.e. Roman Empire and the Chinese who embrace other people if they share the same "ideas".
Difference between China and British empire:
1.中央集权，但是实际上对下层官僚的控制并不严厉（技术上做不到），所以理论上不错的东西现实中做不到，周期性的杯具。
2.扩张的欲望仅限于农耕文明的尽头，换句话说原始森林和海洋天然就是屏障，当然这是文明自身决定的，无可厚非。
3.中国人不茹毛饮血太多年了，估计早就忘记了茹毛饮血的味道了。另外，儒家的体系虽然精密，但是无论如何比不上吃饭和女人，相比较而言，后者在很多时候更有吸引力，其实很多被包容进来的，也无非是看重了帝国的实力，儒家学说和基督教学说一样，可以作为大棒的装饰或者胡萝卜的把柄，但是很难作为两者本身。
家园 flower for the last sentence 儒家学说和基督教学说 is used to maintained family order and social harmony. You do not treat your enemy with those guidelines.
汉宣帝说：“汉家自有法度，本以霸王道杂之。
--today's american empire, yesterday's Han empire and its contemporary Roman empire all played the same card.
Chinese are smart and have already pointed it the substance.
家园 最后一句说得有启发性 儒家既不切实际,又不能成为对外的大棒和萝卜(从刘邦对儒生的态度看,基本把儒家看做邪教或者混蛋教,只是不怎么有现实危害而已),那么就应该摈弃儒学,这是不是毛太祖文G的目的呢?这个目的对不对呢?真去掉儒,中国文化还剩多少呢?
几千年来,不管儒学是”几几开”,作为一个整体,儒学逐步绑架了华夏文明,是没有疑问的。要把这绑匪一枪毙命，又不能回到文G，那么不就全盘西化了吗？
可能今天问题的关键，是怎么把“儒”切开，取其一段，同马列之类中的合理部分基因重组。不过这个手术的学术要求太高，我们市井之徒，只能走避不及。
家园 儒道的问题可能老兄还没看得太清 中国西化已经是即成事实了，继续西化其实是死胡同了。而儒道再加一个目前已现锋芒的释，会是一种新的理念。自宋以后中断并不断走回头路的中国思想体系，现在又有了新生的机会了。一切尽在成本，美国的模式的根本症结其实也是成本问题，当斗争进入细化阶段，罗马架构的劣势一览无遗。剑与盾的比拼，现在又是一个轮回，至少在太空移民到来前，剑将很难有翻身的机会。
家园 see my post above you. for the last sentence. chinese king is smart.
家园 The major problem , I believe, is not the status of 儒家 or 法家. As you said, every major power is smart enough to apply different principles for different affairs. BTW, many principles of 儒家 still can be applied today, like 正心齐家平天下.
However, two problems at hand:
1. How to be (more) expansive? Currently we are expanding in SouthEast Asia and Africa and other corners in the world, which is good. But we do not have the military power to back it up, so...it might be good, but not healthy. Many strings have to be touched and many other countries bought, too much effort.
2. How to be more enterprising? By asking this I'm indicating the "spirit" of our people. Enterprising, as I believe, requires the people(or, elites) to be both expansive and disciplined. If we are not expansive, then we are doomed. If we are expansive yet do not have much discpline(too greedy), then we are also doomed. The contraction of British Empire, in my opinion, is much more cunning and significant than its expansion, while China has always been troubled by the so called 周期律. 从历史上看，每一次王朝的交替都带来了可怕的后果，往往是长达几十年乃至数百年的衰败，人民中的精华损失殆尽，更别提可能带来的技术上的流失。
*****Other thoughts*****
About education: Considering the aspiring mood of 读书无用论 in these days, I cannot help wondering what this would do to our children. People are disappointed as they realize that 读书 is not the 敲门金砖 to power anymore. Personally I donot disagree because it has never been, so why be disappointed?
Another matter: Young parents are more and more restricted to their work (higher CPI, salary not good) and study （各种各样的考证可以轻松的让我们消耗到四十岁）. Who, then, will take care about our children and their education？ It's almost ridiculous to consider marriage if you do not have a "solid" job, which is the reason I won't ponder it in at least 3 years.
家园 NICE 家园 又长知识了。谢谢。 家园 你的意思是盎格鲁是一种主义，而不是一个民族标签？ 如果盎格鲁主义和盎格鲁民族发生冲突，谁才是盎格鲁呢？比如说您的3E原则就是勾引，勾搭，公平，假如某个民族也用3E原则发展强大，把原生anglo民族砍翻在地，可以说这个民族也被WASPed了吗？另外想请教一下，如果盎格鲁这么精明，为什么会让美国独立，难道其实是借壳上市再反向收购，盎格鲁主体跑到米国吗？
家园 see my comments 你的意思是盎格鲁是一种主义，而不是一个民族标签？
--At the beginning, it was a group of people sharing certain physical and cultural characteristics. Over time, this group expanded by including more non-Anglo members. I do not use the term 主义, because the way people talk/behave/think/dress can not be summarized as 主义--主义 is a oriental term, culture is a more appropriate term.
3E原则就是勾引，勾搭，公平?? Are you sure your translation is correct??? Embrace as 勾搭? Expand as 公平---I was so shocked... by your dictionary.
假如某个民族也用3E原则发展强大，把原生anglo民族砍翻在地，可以说这个民族也被WASPed了吗？
--假如某个民族也用3E原则发展强大, culture seldom changes and culture is difficult to replicate, brother. You live in China and could not see the vitality of China's own culture. If you read book about Chinese 100 years earlier and compare with today's China, you will be surprised to see the similarity between now and then.
Overseas Chinese might admire Anglo's cultural success, but do not expect average domestic Chinese to change to adopt those Anglo practices.
--假如某个民族也用3E原则发展强大，把原生anglo民族砍翻在地. It has not happened before. As I said, it is NOT easy to replicate. Can China replicate the "meritcracy" from American society? Do you see meritcracy there in China??? BTW, many Chinese know meritcracy is good for their society and attribute west's success to it, but have you ever seen China shifted in that direction?
另外想请教一下，如果盎格鲁这么精明，为什么会让美国独立，
--Britons never WANTED TO let America go independent.美国独立 was won by violence. I think we all know that--it is in the history book. In order to protect the 13 English colonies in today's northern eastern USA, Britain fought a bloody and costly "7 Year's War" (also called French Indian War in USA) to fend off French colonists. North America almost fell into a totally French world...(Chinese books often failed to cover that).
难道其实是借壳上市再反向收购，盎格鲁主体跑到米国吗？
--US revived and rebuilt Anglo culture as it grew into a more powerful empire. British empire collapsed after WWII.
通宝推：Levelworm,家园 铁手替我送红包了 送花成功。有效送花赞扬。感谢：作者获得通宝一枚。
家园 同意巴黎兄的观点,不过反击太猛,不中庸,就不推了 儒家的虚伪，还是要提倡哈？
家园 谢谢您的回复 Embracing ... by giving you "fair shot",Expansive...to share the prosperity，我的视角是从non-Anglo出发看看被XXed有啥好处，可能翻译的走调了吧。我的感觉3E描述了anglo既有共同的目标，又有合作的手段，秉承anglo文化的国家应该会为建立国际新秩序共同战斗，不大会发生战争，美国独立战争的时候好像不但和盎格鲁兄弟打的热火朝天，还拉来了法兰西做盟军。（当时还觉得搞笑，华盛顿开始帮着英国人打法国人，后来又拉着法国人打英国人。）网上搜到七年战争一篇文章
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/dljl/yingfa/01/11046014/20080421/14797250_6.html
战争的结局
1763年“巴黎和约”是英国这个“老牌帝国”达到巅峰的标志。处处胜利的英国人完全可以提出比它们实际得到的还要多的要求，分得了最大的份额。英国取得了加拿大和法国人割让出来的密西西比河以东的所有领土。英国由此不知不觉地划定了当时意想不到的、于13年后建立的美利坚合众国的疆界...
家园 3E原则充分体现于Ponzi Game 或称老鼠会。确实很难对付。能治老鼠会的招儿便也能治3E了。
理论极限是等到大家都加入了，没人干正经事了，系统便只能崩溃了。
家园 和我观点一致 楼主的视角其实是一种近代中国人的视角，没有考虑过同化所起的作用。毕竟近代以来中国人没有同化过任何人，这也是情有可原。
一种文化的同化能力要强，首先要有很多成文的东西，而不能是潜规则横行的。现在在中国做什么都有很多摆不上台面的潜规则，中国人自己都未必能完全搞清楚，你还能指望把外人同化了？在这一点上，秦朝是个明显的例子。由于秦法明显的成文性以及由此带来的易移植性，才可以刚占领敌国就搞起那么多大工程，还搞大一统这样的大改革动作。你看看日本人当年在沦陷区怎么搞的？只能教教日语搞文化殖民，没个几十年根本没法让占领区在不竭泽而渔的情况下产生收益。当然，日本人也通过刺刀逼着占领区的人给自己干了不少活。但是那是工业化时代，以一当百一点不奇怪。秦国的那个时代军队以一当十就很了不起了，而且主力还在忙着对外征服呢，国内可以预期没有多少军队。在这样的情况下就开搞了。这就是制度的优越性。当然，秦国最后完了，原因就是司马迁总结的“不惜民力”。但是如果采取一种更加可持续的发展模式，我想秦国的文治武功绝对会超过汉唐。
盎格鲁撒克逊的以法治国进行同化与秦朝制度类似，但是却多了很多温情（具体说来，就是那些不满的人都搞不清楚自己是在反对谁？大多数情况下都是只能想到针对某一个人或者单一的政策，而不会想到去推翻现行制度），相对之下更加可以持续。从这一点来说现在就欢欣鼓舞好像他们已经落败了实在太过乐观。中国人多想想怎么让自己强起来才是真的，如果只能在别人不顺的时候才能乐一乐实在有点上不了台面。