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主题:【原创】【整理】致高尔夫、南方系,并安慰忘情兄 -- 巅峰背影

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            • 家园 花之~~~
            • 家园 一针见血~~~
            • 家园 你这个评价很到位,看来得罪方粉了
              • 家园 试举一例?

                你的帖子都比较理性,按理不会随意附和,必然是有想法,而且有证据支持自己的观点。

                先定义一下‘只说部分事实’。按我的理解是任何人都不可能罗列全部事实。所谓只说部分事实应该是选择性忽略足以改变结论的其他事实,只使用支持自己的事实。如果你有这种例子,请分享,谢谢。

                • 家园 比如方舟子对蒙牛和转基因的双重标准

                  参考文献

                  http://my.icxo.com/html/83/263883-254317.html

                  方舟子批评蒙牛添加剂

                  http://news.fh21.com.cn/zjysp/zjyssff/20060621/15035974.shtml

                  方舟子力捧转基因

                  方舟子批评蒙牛添加剂是对的,其论据和结论我都同意。 但看看他批评蒙牛时候说的话,对比一下他现在大力吹捧转基因说的话,非常有喜剧感, 比如

                  1. 方批评蒙牛添加剂:“IGF-1做为蛋白质,一般都会在胃肠中被消化掉,但是一小部分有可能通过消化道伤口、淋巴系统等渠道完整地进入人体发挥作用。”

                  为什么转基因BT蛋白,就成了全部都会被消化,一点问题没有?方为转基因担保:“为什么Bt内毒素对人、畜无毒呢?这有几方面的原因。我们在吃食物时一般是要加热、煮熟才吃的,内毒素是一种蛋白质,蛋白质加热后会变性,实验表明,内毒素在60摄氏度的水中煮一分钟就失去活性。...被人和牲畜吃下去的内毒素,会像其他蛋白质一样被消化、分解掉。”置换一下,完全可以用来为蒙牛辩护

                  “为什么IGF-1对人、畜无毒呢?这有几方面的原因。我们在吃食物时一般是要加热、煮熟才吃的,IGF-1是一种蛋白质,蛋白质加热后会变性,实验表明,IGF-1在60摄氏度的水中煮一分钟就失去活性。...被人和牲畜吃下去的IGF-1,会像其他蛋白质一样被消化、分解掉。”

                  2. 方认为蒙牛没有人体实验不应该,“查阅蒙牛专利申请资料,发现其实验对象只包括对大鼠,而没有人的临床试验?这是否符合国家一般实验流程规定或者科学伦理?

                  如果要证明某种药物对人体是否有影响(包括正面的和负面的影响),动物实验只是非常初步的研究,并不能说明问题,还必须有人体临床试验。仅仅用动物实验就想说明药物的作用,是不符合科学规范的。”

                  转基因作物的人体实验,科学斗士方舟子怎么就不要求了?

                  对国产蒙牛高标准严要求,对从美国引进的转基因高科技无条件担保,就是方舟子的本质。

                  所以我非常同意花大熊的评价“方不喜欢说纯粹的假话,但他从不说全部的真话”。

                  通宝推:jet,秦桑,读书点com,子玉,
                  • 家园 【商榷】麻烦你仔仔细细的看看方舟子的文章

                    转基因并非没有做过试验。而且也不是中国人第一个提出来转基因的安全问题。美国人对于转基因的研究很长时间,而且北美都在用,都在吃转基因食品,而且时间比中国长的多。中国完全可以选择没有转基因,但是后果是更多的农药残留,更少的收获。

                    方舟子对于蒙牛的批评主要在于夸大IGF1对于人体的作用,将科学盲目用于商业炒作。而且,改头换面将IGF1换说成OMP,另外IGF1也没有得到认可可以添加牛奶中。

                    方舟子说话很尖锐,论点很鲜明,得罪的人很多,但是如果说他不坚持科学的观点,说话过分主观,恐怕早就被人驳倒了。

                    看看他对付的人,个个都倒下了,什么养生教父教母,什么唐骏,还有针对的整个中医行业,我倒是想看看他什么时候能够倒下来。但是,现在我恐怕下一个倒下的就是乐嘉。

                  • 家园 BT蛋白已经被人吃了七十年了。

                    本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
                    • 家园 岂止70年,Bt菌是个自然存在的细菌

                      从人开始吃菜那年就开始吃这玩意了。牛马驴骡更是没少吃这些东西,它们做饭之前不摘菜呀。


                      本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
                      • 家园 又想当然了, BT菌是土壤里的细菌

                        没有人类折腾, 不会天然到草上, 菜上的。


                        本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
                        • 家园 我把回复弄到科技探索去了,发了个主贴

                          这里已经看不出发贴的层次,再说对楼主的主题也是严重的歪楼。欢迎去新帖继续讨论:

                          王二狗:Bt菌在自然界里的存在,是否仅仅限于土壤

                        • 家园 想当然?1911年发现Bt菌,是在面粉的虫子里

                          地中海粉螟,产卵于幼虫的食物里,幼虫从一出生就生活在面粉堆里,它们从哪里吃到的Bt菌呢?它们吃得到,人吃得到吗?

                          以下是若干文献,说明Bt菌在自然界植物以及植物制品上的广泛分布:

                          [URL=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC182704/]The Phylloplane as a Source of Bacillus thuringiensis Variants

                          [/URL]

                          《叶面是Bt菌变种的来源》

                          在针叶和落叶林的叶面上分离到Bt菌。这些Bt菌对毛虫有毒性。

                          Novel variants of Bacillus thuringiensis were isolated from the phylloplane of deciduous and conifer trees as well as of other plants. These isolates displayed a range of toxicity towards Trichoplusia ni. Immunoblot and toxin protein analysis indicate that these strains included representatives of the three principal B. thuringiensis pathotypes active against larvae of the orders Lepidoptera, Diptera, and Coleoptera. We propose that B. thuringiensis be considered part of the common leaf microflora of many plants.

                          [URL=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC195596/]

                          Distribution, Frequency, and Diversity of Bacillus thuringiensis in an Animal Feed Mill[/URL]

                          《Bt菌在一个动物饲料磨坊里的分布,频率和多样性》

                          在一个动物饲料磨坊里分离到Bt菌。其中一些产生delta-toxin

                          Bacillus thuringiensis was isolated from 36 of 50 residue samples obtained from an animal feed mill (a stored-product environment). Of 710 selected colonies having Bacillus cereus-B. thuringiensis morphology isolated from the samples, 477 were classified as B. thuringiensis because of production of parasporal δ-endotoxin crystals. There was a diverse population of B. thuringiensis, as revealed by differentiation of the isolates into 36 subgroups by using (i) their spectra of toxicity to the lepidopterans Heliothis virescens, Pieris brassicae, and Spodoptera littoralis and the dipteran Aedes aegypti and (ii) their parasporal crystal morphology. A total of 55% of the isolates were not toxic to any of these insects at the concentrations used in the bioassays; 40% of all isolates were toxic to one or more of the Lepidoptera; and 20, 1, and 1% of the isolates were toxic to only P. brassicae, H. virescens, and S. littoralis, respectively. The most frequent toxicity was toxicity to P. brassicae (36% of all isolates); 18% of the isolates were toxic to A. aegypti (5% exclusively), 10% were toxic to H. virescens, and 4% were toxic to S. littoralis. Toxicity to P. brassicae was more often linked with toxicity to H. virescens than with toxicity to S. littoralis. The frequency of toxicity was significantly greater in isolates that produced bipyramidal crystals than in isolates that produced irregular pointed, irregular spherical, rectangular, or spherical crystals.

                          [URL=http://www.ots.ac.cr/tropiweb/attachments/volumes/vol54-2/04-RODRIGUEZ-Bacillus.pdf]

                          Bacillus thuringiensis in caterpillars and associated materials collected from protected tropical forests in northwestern Costa Rica

                          [/URL]

                          《哥斯达黎加西北部热带保育森林里的毛虫和相关物体上采集到的Bt菌》

                          在哥斯达黎加的森林里的叶片,毛虫肠和粪便中分离到Bt菌

                          Abstract. Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) synthesizes crystalline inclusions that are toxic to caterpillars (Lepidoptera)

                          and other orders of invertebrates. Materials associated with 37 caterpillars from 16 species, collected while feeding

                          on 15 different species of host plants in dry, cloud and rain forests located in the rea de Conservación

                          Guanacaste in northwestern Costa Rica, were examined for the presence of Bt. From a total of 101 derived

                          samples, 25 Bt isolates were cultured: 56% from host plant leaves, 8% from caterpillar guts and 36% from caterpillar

                          fecal pellets. Bt was isolated from at least one sample in 38% of the systems constituted by the food plant,

                          gut and fecal pellets corresponding to a single caterpillar. Four different morphologies of crystalline inclusions

                          were observed, with bipyramidal and irregular crystal morphologies being the most prevalent. Rev. Biol. Trop.

                          54(2): 265-271. Epub 2006 Jun 01.

                          Natural Isolates ofBacillus thuringiensis:Worldwide Distribution, Characterization, and Activity against Insect Pest

                          《Bt菌的自然分离株: 世界范围内的分布,定性,以及对昆虫害虫的活性》

                          来自于80个国家的5303个自然样品里分离到的Bt菌,45%来自于储存的产品,25%来自于土壤。抗昆虫活性物含量最高的样品是磨菇和储藏的产品……

                          Abstract

                          Bacillus thuringiensiswas isolated from natural samples collected from 80 countries. The majority, 45% of the 5303 isolates, originated from stored products, with 25% originating from soil. The materials richest in isolates active in insects were mushroom compost and stored products. The proportion with bipyramidal-shaped crystals was 46%, while among the range of other shapes 14% were spherical and 4% rectangular. The largest proportion of isolates, 45%, was found in the United Kingdom with the majority originating from stored mills, which import produce from all over the world; 22% came from North America. Using single-dose assays, 44% of the isolates killed less than 25% of larvae of all four Lepidoptera tested,Heliothis virescens, Pieris brassicae, Spodoptera littoralis,andAgrotis ypsilon.Among isolates killing more than 25% of the larvae, every combination of activities of the 16 possible against these 4 insects was found, in proportions ranging from 0.6 to 14.5%, suggesting considerable diversity of insect activity. The 44% of strains with little or no activity to Lepidoptera (<25% mortality) included strains selectively active against Diptera and Coleoptera. An analysis of activity using one representative species from each of the three orders of insectsH. virescens, Aedes aegypti,andPhaedon cochleariaeshowed 48.8% of strains to be inactive (<25% mortality) in all three, with 1.2 to 14.6% active in the other 7 possible combinations. For an analysis of geographical origins of insect activity, 3 species (P. cochleariae, S. littoralis,andH. virescens) were chosen with susceptibility to different δ-endotoxins. With one exception, activity did not appear to be correlated with origin, indicating a relatively ubiquitous distribution of the selected activities and ofB. thuringiensisin general. The worldwide spread and evolution of this insect pathogen and its different types are discussed in relation to geographical origin and source materials, as well as possible interaction with other bacteria.

                          Isolation, distribution and toxicity of Bacillus thuringiensis from warehouses in China

                          《来自于中国仓库的Bt菌的分离,分布与毒性》

                          在413个来自于谷仓,加工工厂和饲料厂的粉尘和死虫样品中,有122个样品里分离到了Bt菌。其中在存放米糠和麻袋装米的仓库的粉尘里分离到的样品最多。

                          Using acetate selection to screen dust samples and cadavers of insect, Bacillus thuringiensis was isolated from 122 of 413 samples obtained from various warehouses, processing facilities and animal feed mills. Abundance of B. thuringiensis in the settled dust samples of different origins was different. Among them, B. thuringiensis were most abundant in the settled dust samples from warehouses storing rice bran and gunny-bag, in which 46 and 50% of samples contained B. thuringiensis, respectively. The B. thuringiensis in samples from mountainous region and hilly country were more abundant than that from lowland areas, in which 41 and 20% of samples contained B. thuringiensis, respectively. These B. thuringiensis isolates belonged to serotypes H3, H4, H5, H7, H8, H10, H23 and H27. Among them, serotypes H4 and H5 were most abundant and amounted to 36 and 24% of isolates, respectively. The B. thuringiensis from different types of warehouses and regions was different in terms of H-serotype. There is rich diversity of toxicity to insects in B. thuringiensis isolates from warehouses; 58 and 71% of the isolates were toxic to larvae of Plodia interpunctella and Spodoptera exigua, respectively, causing more than 60% mortality. Most isolates were not toxic to Phaedon brassicae and Culexpipiens fatigans; only one isolate was highly toxic, causing more than 90% mortality to both species.


                          本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
                    • 家园 瞎说, 生态农业用BT菌是外用

                      生态农业用BT菌治虫是外用,除了使用后自然降解,剩下的洗一洗就大都冲掉了,哪怕有残留也极少极少。 转基因是让作物细胞不断表达BT毒素,怎么洗?

                      外用药用了几十年或者几百上千年很安全, 改作内服药就可以? 完全是有意误导。

                      • 家园 顺手指个错

                        有表达就不错了 还不断表达?

                        真的这么牛X 工厂里面做菌株筛选 细胞驯化的就全部失业

                        要知道让外源基因表达是很难的 不是说把基因仍进去就表达了

                        否则生物学家老早失业了 转基因也不要国家投资了

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