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主题:泛太平洋合作伙伴和中国的崛起(TPP) -- 江湖雨夜

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  • 家园 泛太平洋合作伙伴和中国的崛起(TPP)

    泛太平洋合作伙伴和中国的崛起

    看大家聊TPP,就是泛太平洋合作伙伴( Trans-Pacific Partnership),Foreign Affairs上正好有篇文章,我大概

    总结一下:

    1 美国跟韩国已经签署韩美自由贸易协定

    2 美国正跟澳洲,文莱,智利,马来西亚,新西兰,秘鲁,新加坡,越南 谈判

    3 TPP将在10年内把关税讲到零,TPP不但包括货物,还包括服务,知识产权,投资,国企等等

    4 没有日本的加入,TPP还是非常的微不足道,大约是美国6%的贸易额。

    5 重点来了:日本的加入,传统上美国国会不愿意让日本加入,因为害怕日本的工业实力,日本不愿加入,因为要

    保护国内的农业。但是现在日本加入因为三个原因:

    A 韩国加入的话,对日本是很大的打击,因为韩国跟日本的产品很接近。

    B 灾后,保护农业的动力减弱。

    C 中国南海的争端。

    分析了日本国内的政治变化,2009年日本首相还倡导“东亚共荣”2011风向变动,改为向美国倾斜,对抗中国。

    文章结尾:东亚现在是经典的权力平衡。

    感想:不知道美国现在回来还来不来得及,因为就算日本加入,日本,韩国,澳洲最大的贸易伙伴是中国。

    美国人会买多少澳洲的铁矿石?多少日韩的汽车呢?前一阵调查丰田给三大汽车舒困。

    东南亚国家,日韩的加入可能还是南海的事情。

    历史上东南亚国家都是发中国的国难财的:

    1 东南亚开始受惠英国对中国的鸦片贸易。

    2 朝鲜战争中,日本战后复兴的第一桶金

    3 越南战争,东南亚国家大发战争财。

    所以东南亚,日韩传统上向美国靠拢时总会获得相当的利益,传统使然,不知道这次如何收场。

    On October 14, in a speech to the Economic Club of New York, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton heralded the United States’ so-called pivot toward Asia, announcing, “The world’s strategic and economic center of gravity is shifting east.” Her remarks were part of a recent U.S. effort to reaffirm the United States’ role as a Pacific power, a response to worries among Asia-Pacific states about the rise of China and the United States’ long-term commitment to the region. U.S. President Barack Obama will reinforce this message later this month when he visits several Asian capitals and hosts the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum in Hawaii. Central to this regional policy is trade: with Congressional approval of the U.S.-Korea Free Trade Agreement now behind him, Obama seeks to cement the United States’ economic role in Asia by finalizing the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, a free trade pact currently being negotiated by Australia, Brunei, Chile, Malaysia, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, the United States, and Vietnam.

    When the negotiations are completed, the TPP agreement will bring most import tariffs on trade within the group to zero over a ten-year period. In addition to the merchandise traditionally included in previous such pacts, the TPP will cover services, intellectual property, investments, and state-owned enterprises, among other areas. Given its expansiveness, U.S. Trade Representative Ron Kirk has touted it as a “twenty-first century” agreement that will lead to a flourishing of regional trade.

    But if the TPP were to remain as it is presently constituted -- without Japan’s inclusion -- the agreement would not be the economic boon many hoped it would. The TPP group accounts for only six percent of U.S. trade, about the same fraction as U.S. trade with Japan alone. Japan is a major importer of U.S. goods and services, and particularly of expensive advanced-technology products, such as jet engines, numerically controlled machine tools, and biotechnology products. And in contrast to the U.S. trade deficit with China, which is rising sharply, the trade imbalance with Japan is declining steadily. Washington understands all this, and has called for broadening the TPP to include Japan. Clayton Yeutter, a former U.S. trade representative, and the international trade lawyer Jonathan Stoel recently wrote in the Wall Street Journal that with Japanese participation, “trade in the Asia-Pacific region will explode. It could easily triple or quadruple.”

    The United States was not always so bullish on trade with Japan. The idea of a U.S.-Japanese free trade agreement was first proposed by U.S. ambassador to Japan Mike Mansfield in the late 1980s, but, given fears about Japanese economic supremacy, few in the United States gave the idea serious consideration. Tokyo dismissed it as well, mainly because its economic outlook at the time centered on global multilateral trade rather than on regional trade agreements.

    Nations of the region need not succumb to the inevitability of a Pacific dominated by China.

    All that has now started to change. U.S. Deputy Secretary of State William Burns said in Tokyo in October that the United States would “welcome Japan’s interest in the TPP, recognizing of course that Japan’s decision to pursue joining will be made based on its own careful considerations of its priorities and interests.” For its part, Tokyo seems ready to join the talks. Japanese entry has been on the table since October 2010, when then Prime Minister Naoto Kan and his foreign minister, Seiji Maehara, both endorsed it. Of course, all trade issues were put on hold in March 2011 by the triple disasters of earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear meltdown. But Tokyo spent recent months testing the waters, and Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda is expected to announce this week that Japan will join the negotiations.

    Japan’s new interest in the TPP stems from three factors. First is the fear generated by the U.S. free trade agreement with South Korea. Japan’s export industry has long been worried about near-identical Korean products in foreign markets, and Seoul’s access to U.S. consumers will only grow once the pact is implemented.

    The second element is the declining political clout of Japanese agricultural interests. This group was long opposed to a free trade agreement with the United States because it feared that Japan’s small-scale and highly protected farmers would be overrun by lower-priced imports. But agriculture now accounts for less than 1.5 percent of Japan’s GDP, which has also meant a sharp decline in farm-related employment. The need to rebuild the economy in the wake of the March disasters amplified calls for reform of Japan’s outdated farming sector. This has eased the way for Japan’s exporters, led by the business federation Keidanren, to step up their pro-trade agenda.

    The final factor is China’s new foreign policy assertiveness. An early sign was Beijing’s revival, in 2010, of claims to islands in the South China Sea, an issue that has roiled relations between China and its neighbors since the mid-1990s. In 2002, China and its neighbors in the Association of Southeast Asian Nations agreed to resolve the claims multilaterally, but China later insisted on dealing bilaterally with each neighbor. China’s foreign minister argued at the time, “China is a big country and other countries are small countries, and that’s just a fact.”

    Japan bore the brunt of Chinese belligerence in September 2010, when a Chinese fishing trawler rammed one of its coast guard boats. When Japan arrested the trawler’s captain, Beijing demanded that Japan apologize and release him, and it stopped exports to Japan of crucial rare-earth minerals. Maehara, then foreign minister, called China’s reaction “hysterical”; now a central player in the Noda government, he is among Japan’s most popular politicians. In a recent speech in Washington, reflecting Tokyo’s assessment, he expressed worries about how China’s rise “alters the power balance of the game in the region.”

    Such statements show that Japan has come a long way from where it was in 2009, when former Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama urged Japan to integrate more with Asia and to adopt a policy of “equidistance” between Beijing and Washington. The Noda government has instead reinforced its already close ties with Washington, and many Japanese now argue that Japan must join in the booming transpacific trade to escape the economic doldrums of the past two decades. “Japan should harness the energy of the Asia-Pacific region,” Noda said at a Democratic Party of Japan meeting in August, “and use it for economic recovery.”

    The U.S. ambassador in Tokyo, John Roos, recently remarked that Japan’s inclusion in the TPP would be a “game changer.” He is right. A transpacific trade agreement with Japan on board would be a victory for the principle of an open international system. Moreover, as an adviser to Prime Minister Noda stated earlier this month, Tokyo joining the TPP talks would help it “consolidate a strategic environment that gives China the impression that Japan is a formidable country that can’t be intimidated.” Nations of the region need not succumb to the inevitability of a Pacific dominated by China. A Trans-Pacific Partnership composed of Japan, the United States, Australia, and the group’s smaller economies represents a healthier alternative -- one that realists would recognize as a step toward a classic balance of power.

    • 家园 基情

      http://chn.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/11/17/20111117000021.html

    • 家园 有个问题请教下

      如果美国要搞tpp,那就是说美国要重新把实物生产搞起来,搞实物生产,能源和矿产原材料是基本,那么,美国会不会把这些东西的价格打下去?如果会,那么中国必然趁机大买便宜资源。如果美国既要搞生产,又要整中国,那么美国就需要专门在tpp中约束,这些便宜的资源只能在tpp诸国中买卖,不能卖给tpp以外的国家,美国做不做得到呢?中国发展的瓶颈之一就是资源,如果美国重新搞生产,中国有没有可能利用一下形势?美国有没有办法,既搞好生产,又不准中国占便宜?

      • 家园 这个目前估计还每人知道

        现在的TPP还只是拉大旗作为虎皮阶段,到底这个组织定型为何种模式,目前估计美国人也不知道.

        按照传统,美国还是农产品,金融产品,知识产权哪一套,重新搞实物生产? 怎么搞? 美国国际大公司和很多欧洲跟实业有关的的大公司的实业不是搞得不好,但亚洲生产和利润的份额逐年增加,尤其是2008年后,美国都是负增长,你是CEO的话,给董事局汇报,当然要把投资投到利润增加的亚洲市场,同时亚洲市场的竞争相当激烈,美国,日本,欧洲,加上中国本土的企业,稍有闪失就是灾难性的.

        我看到很多公司都加大了对中国的投资,调派了技术人员"支援" 大中国区.

        这些大公司不会因为现在美国搞了TPP就撤离中国,很多时候,中国就是最大的市场,他们往哪里撤?

        美国的实体经济是八十年代出现问题的,当时国际化最差的钢铁企业被日本的钢铁企业摧垮,很多钢铁城镇陷入萧条. 国际化很好的部门,比如生化,制药,电子都活了下来.

        现在对西方而言最大的问题不是他们的大公司,这些大公司很有效率,关键是亚洲,主要是中国已经成为他们最大的市场,TPP如果中国不加入的话,TPP对它们没有.

        美国人,欧洲人不是不搞实业生产,只是不再本土搞而已.不是因为本土不需要(10% 失业率,大量的基础设施需要翻新),只是因为回报率不及亚洲市场.

        资本从来都是锦上添花,不会雪中送炭.大企业,大工业跟国家的矛盾一直是存在的.

        • 家园 高见!受教了

          果然内因是第一位的,不是美国衰落了,而是别人成长了。

          • 家园 高见不敢当,

            简而言之,就是中国要成为世界贸易的中心,把全球工业体系朝着民用,利润为主的方向发展,防止工业体系由于贸易保护,转型为战争机器,如果这个大方向搞好了,对世界人民都是福音,当然中国首先要有强大的国防体系,要不人家直接就把贸易体系砸烂了.

            美国这架机器出问题了,人家像从新格式化,中国像继承现在的体系,呵呵

          • 家园 TPP好像还不足为虑,但

            随着美国,和目前的欧洲的债务危机加深,有可能导致国家严重干预贸易,那样的话就有点担心了.

            日本衰落了20年了,很多人觉得日本还是歌照唱,舞照跳,似乎没啥.

            美国2007危机爆发,现在2011了,5年了好像还是没有崩溃.

            现在是欧洲.

            其实日本危机的爆发,和危机后的处理,是个珍品,可谓败而不乱.

            美国和欧洲没有日本应付危机的条件,日本的储蓄极高,日本政府可以利用储蓄借债,还有就是日本的制造也还是非常强大的,尤其对中国的出口,对其经济复苏帮助非常大.但日本的Debt/GDP=197%, 导致的是工业的投资缓慢,加上老龄化,日本估计自广场协议一役,要安乐死了.

            美国知道日本的危机处理的奇迹,但一是无法效仿,没有日本的储蓄率,和出口机器.二来可能不想像日本安乐死.

            当一个国家签了别人大量的债, 没法还时,要吗是货币贬值,像东南亚危机一样,韩国就是,考货币贬值走出危机.

            一战后的德国,欠了一屁股的债,还高出了个超级通货膨胀,像德国这种拥有钢铁的国家,国际贸易崩溃后,出口无门,是不会坐以待毙的,结果是战备经济和二战.

            美国也是一样,拥有战争机器的国家,是不会坐以待毙的.

            一战的德国时,其最成功的大企业都是国际性公司,他们无意破坏国际贸易,可是国际贸易崩溃后,希特勒成了他们的大客户,于是大工业加入战争机器,二战非常惨烈.

            现在的贸易模式,欧美的大工业对中国是非常友好的,因为利润所在,只是如果目前的贸易被破坏,导致他们无法运作,要依赖国家的采购,那就是一战后的经济模式了,贸易保护,大公司转型生产战争物品.

            目前美国TPP名自由贸易,实为贸易保护.

            中国如果能成功的使国际贸易正常运作,则功在千古,这样全球整个工业体系将以利润,民用为导向,如果形成贸易保护,工业体系搞不好要转型为战略物质生产,每个主权国家成为大客户,那样非常担心.

            瞎说两句,最近看看一战后到二战间的工业体系的转变,觉的是前车之鉴.

    • 家园 中国不会理睬这个TPP的。

      中国不会理睬这个TPP的。

      东盟各国,想重蹈97金融危机覆辙的,可以自便。

      韩日这种铁杆,都还要上杆子和中国签货币互换协议。其他的,可想而知。

      这就是个忽悠专用的东东。

    • 家园 老美这手挺聪明,十年后还宰不了中国,就把东南亚再宰一遍!
    • 家园 中国走的路很多是照着日本学的

      那么中国资本(包括台资)把制造业转移到TPP国家就不会是个难以预料的事,实际上估计已经开始了,因为日本财阀们前三十年中向中国转移制造业技术几乎是同一版本的。本国的工人怎么办,福利社会怎么办,那么也是照着日本的样子看看就知道了,如果能把一些高端的产业控制在本土,那么吃老本还是可以吃上一阵的,温州财团们也可以象日资那样出去到处投资,靠吃红利也是不错的。唯一问题是中国手中有些什么高端产业,另外中国这些年积累的财富有没有个有效的方法福利于全社会,哪怕象美日那样政府破产,但是工作机会的损失不至于一下子影响社会稳定。

      河里高潮唱衰美国的最近特别多,但是有没有人想一下,如果中国出现占领华尔街那样的情形,会是个什么性质的问题。

      • 家园 想在河里多得花凡事力挺中共唱衰美国就行了

        地图上画圈圈开疆扩土是最省力的方法,不需要任何论据和分析来支持,喊喊口号就可以了,本帖里的一个得花比较多的回帖就是完美典范。西西河里体制派是主流但还没彻底一言堂,但也只是时间早晚的问题。现在左派和右派在网上都能找到自己的大本营,在自己的大本营里跟着本方大牛喊口号和不分青红皂白使劲攻击对手就能玩得很嗨,洗脑和被洗脑在同时进行着,和宗教性质差不多。中间派在哪都是两边不讨好处境最尴尬。

    • 家园 首先佬美是无能力通过武力消灭我们的产能的

      犹太集团更不会通过武力为他人作嫁装的、不用过度高诂他们的智商、万不可低诂美帝的无耻。

      以tpp来打击土共产能、压缩土共发展空间是美帝的愿望但只能是个愿望而已、这些年日美对东南亚的扶殖够买力的了、结果如何?wto是美帝诈发展中国家钱的圈套、如今美帝穷得"快死"了却突然大发慈悲、为发展中国家搞个tpp送钱去? 不可能的!

      美帝的救命药只剩EQ3.4.5......而能容下泛滥的美元区在哪?欧元诞生之日就是断了美帝一条腿、所以我们今天看到的欧债问题就是美帝想整死整伤欧元、以解燃眉之急、而美元真正的天敌是人民币、而人民币国际化的桥头堡就是东南亚市场圈和加拿大、澳洲、新西兰等资元国家。随着人民币的升值、东南亚市场圈的美元热在退潮、美元往哪发?用冷战思维与贬值美元已不能引起东南亚市场圈对美帝的追随了、可美帝还在春梦不醒。在非洲美帝倒是有用武之地、可惜无用钱之处。

      tpp是继wto之后美帝想造的另一个美元沉淀(泛滥)池、可以推断它将会强行推行美元结算规则、tpp里日、韩、澳、加是美帝要找的小弟、而东南亚国家么是给土共和人民币掺砂子。

      美帝能成功吗?经济方面、人民币的含金量在上升而美元的含金量在下降、中国的市场在扩大而美国的市场在缩小。谁会赢?

      军事方面、土共国防能力在下降?谁会输?

      土共要防的是美帝先做多人民币、而后武力冒险做空人民币的金融诈取手段给我们造成巨额损失、所以人民币国际化的步子要稳、要步步为营、以时间换空间、以实力求发展。

    • 家园 这件事只有一个用途:站队!
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