主题：【原创】挖坑，也谈谈1959-1961及前后数年 -- 天天向上A
家园 How to view Three Years Some people compare Three Years of Disaster to Naking Massacre, and say Communist China kills more people than Naking Massacre. Such a comparing is totally wrong. It was true that many people died during Cultural Revolution and Communist government was responsible for that. Chinese people and Communist Party have all admitted that. Just like every year many people died of gun crime in US. US people and government admit the fact and everybody know that it’s the reasonability of US government to reduce the gun crimes. Saying Communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre, however, is just the same as saying democratic America kills more American than 911 attract. As every year about 10 thousands of American was killed in gun crimes.
The difference between Culture Revelation as well as three years of disaster and Nanking massacre is just the same as between US gun crimes and 911. One is due to social instability and bad government policies, and other is due to foreign invasion. During Culture Revolution, the death rate is much higher for government officials and CCP officials than the rate in other group. Saying communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre is just the same as saying Democratic America is killing more America than 911. During three years of disaster, many poor Chinese died of hunger, Chinese people know that, and Chinese government know that, and they all know something is not correct, just like US people know that so many gun crimes in US is not correct. There are more poor people died in three years of disaster than government officials is just like there are more poor people fall as gun crimes victims in US. There must be some communists died during three years of disasters, and many who died have relatives as communists. As we know, during civil war in China, it was the most poor who joint the Communist Party. 1959 was only 10 year after civil war and majority of Chinese population was still in countryside. At that time, most of government and party officials were come from the countryside and come from poor families. If there are someone who wants to killed Chinese people intentionally during 1959-1961 and Cultural Revolution, then it should be United States and Soviet Union. They succeed in putting economic sanction on China, which led to humanitarian disasters indirectly.
Communist China is bad. Chinese know it. But Chinese are not foolish enough to overthrow it, as they know that the present China is still the best among all other forms of governments they tried since Opium War. Since Opium War, Chinese tried democracy under Sun Yet-sent but all the Western countries, including democratic ones, just support local war lords in China to extent their state interest at the expense of Chinese democracy and at the expense of Chinese people. That’s why Dr. Sun turned to Soviet and welcomed Communist in China.
In the last a few decades, poverty population reduced all over the world, and China made the number one contribution in reducing world poverty. Many poor peasants of yesterday are rich entrepreneurs today in China, thanks to market economy adapted by Communist China. Regardless the label put on China as communist or capitalist, the present Chinese government works for the better of China and the world.
家园 是什么原因使你不能用母语而不得不用英语来贴切地表达 你的思想了？
家园 用批判的眼光独立的做出自己的判断 对别人的文章、言论（特别是网络文章），要用批判的眼光独立的做出自己的判断，亲眼看到的、亲耳听到的、亲身体会的、有意亲身调查的，远比某些自封的“砖家”、“公知”、“精蝇”按有奶便是娘的原则写的文章更贴近历史真相。我亲身经历了那个时代（虽然很小），亲眼看到的、亲耳听到的、亲身体会的、2000年看到此类文章后有意识亲身调查多个省60—70岁的老人，三年自然灾害死的人应少于武斗死亡人数（可能个别省除外），现在70-80岁的老人大多不上网，但把“砖家”、“公知”、“精蝇”的言论当笑话。指鹿为马是暂时的，真相终会真相大白。
家园 以后碰到那傻直接“呸”就够意思了 不用写这么多，那个m其实就是壹家一
家园 历史的耻辱柱就树在那里，无论你承认还是否认，它都立在那里 不敢承认历史，不敢面对历史，你就永远没有未来。老百姓心里有杆称，称得出你的斤两
家园 两者关系 南京大屠杀和三年自然灾害的关系:因为被屠杀,所以建国首要就是建立国防,在战争威胁下越快越好.这就要大量抽取民力.所以安全边际就很小.如果干部措施得力.即抽取和留存比例合理.能把损失减到最小.但悲哀的是建国首先损失的是两个工业最发达的地区的领导人.
谢富治在云南刚饿死人时,就马上检查请辞,云南在三年自然灾害损失最小.而河南信阳事件,张钦礼3次告御状,主席3次批示无果,最后总理出面才解决.但已来不急了.酿成惨剧.摆渡张钦礼就可证实.
飞扬有人爆料说大跃进的发明是修养在去郑州开会的火车同总理说话时讲的,并首先交吴芝圃去办.联系其在工业领域建设中没有功绩急于树威和后来的张钦礼事件.反正我是相信了.
本来擂紧裤腰带搞建设这是民族强大的必由之路.这是没有选择的.否则国家就会成为强国的附庸,虽然当时会好过些.但苏东坡的解体带来社会动荡死人也不会少.如果脱离苏.有可能成为阿富汗.
况且也不会有完整的工业体系,今天的富强也无从谈起.
但必竟干部队伍中出了问题,后来的事情也就顺理成章.
所以从整个几十年历史来看.中国没有什么多余的选择机会.
通宝推：海底鼠拨土,acton,
家园 爱尔兰、孟加拉、东非的饥荒都是“世界历史之外”的饥荒。 家园 和诡辩者是没有讨论的意义的 先笼统的说
“在和平建设年代发生如此全国范围内的大饥荒，在世界历史上有三次经典案例”， 注意说的是“世界历史上” 和 “和平建设年代”
一旦有质疑，立刻变成
1. 不考虑高寒国家，因为有19世纪的爱尔兰太冷。
2. 不考虑游牧民族。
估计再说下去“世界历史”还要进一步变短，世界所包含的国家范围还要进一步缩小。
其实这样好了，“世界历史” = 从十月革命到1979年，世界=一切专制国家， 一切都搞定。
家园 欧洲粮仓乌克兰和4000年农业历史的中国被你用来和几百年 前的高寒爱尔兰和半沙漠的东非来比较。更不用说前面两个是以对社会全面控制闻名世界的体制，后面的国家形态还是游牧部落。由此可知来洗地的都是些神马货色
家园 你这路活宝的特点很鲜明，就是抵死狂喷。 4000年的农业史并不能为人民免于挨饿背书。“4000年农业史”上“饥荒”不是一个生僻词。自从盘古开天地，三皇五帝到如今，能够苟延残喘活下来的民族，哪家都少不了几样弄饭的辙，4000年的农业史不见得比别家高明到哪里去。
“半沙漠”地区或者爱尔兰这种冬季平均气温6、7度，全国最高点1000米的“高寒”地区人民未必只有饿死一途，因纽特人生活条件更恶劣，也都还活得下去。对这些地区的人民来说，“饥荒”也并非常态。
饥荒就是饥荒，饥荒与饥荒具有同质性，世界上并不存在“非典型”饥荒和“典型”饥荒的区分，也不存在“可耻的”饥荒和“不可耻”的饥荒之分。“自由民主”社会的饥荒并不比“全面控制”的社会的饥荒更高贵，更有资本可以游离于“世纪历史之外”。
要说特点，到也不是没有，那就是无论苏联、中国还是朝鲜，都是在遭受全面严酷的政治孤立经济封锁和军事威胁，不得不把国防安全及其相关产业放在重中之重以至于不惜一切代价。
我没有否认这段饥荒的历史，老共自己也没有否认这段黑暗史。但九十年代以来，这段饥荒史已经“几易其稿”，死亡人数从一千万而三千万而四千万而七千万，几乎赶得上“人有多大胆，地有多大产”，依据若何？对于这样的“放卫星”，心智健全的人必须要提出疑问。
想将老共钉死在历史耻辱柱上，得先静下心来把判决书弄得像样点，靠抹黑别人“洗地”之类小把戏瞎混不是长久之计,将国内饥荒灾难和日寇侵略屠杀相提并论更只会让你遗臭人间死不足惜。
通宝推：分瓜,看山,知其何休,terron,SleepingBeauty,阴霾信仰,乘波而来,franky9,云中飞,路远无轻,海底鼠拨土,家园 这位 猫扑费事先生是河里著名东方不败之一，不管你多么有理有据，他都不会失败。
不会的，永远不会的。
家园 还有某十多亿人口的民主大国的饥荒 把该国的饥荒称之为“世界历史之外”倒是十分贴切的，因为这一切都是现在进行时，不是历史，而是现实：
家园 还有灯塔国三十年代人口平白无故减少一成 http://club.kdnet.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=1&id=8688438