五千年(敝帚自珍)

主题:我对进化论的一些看法兼与流云商榷 -- 数字马甲

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  • 家园 我对进化论的一些看法兼与流云商榷

    因为不想影响主贴的可读性,因为有些讨论到后来就跑题万里,所以在这里另开一帖,谈谈我对进化论的一些看法也兼与流云兄商榷。我的立场是君子和而不同,欢迎一切有理有据的讨论拒绝一切没有根据的泼脏水。

    关于进化论,流云认为是科学,我想这个没有问题,但我不认为它是真理,只能算是一个学说吧,因为进化论本身还有很多东西没有搞清楚也存在争议。

    我本身学工科的,对进化论也了解的不是很多,仅限于中学生物课的学习。如果有什么观念或者观点上的错误,希望大家指正。

    对于进化论,我想一个很重要的问题和质疑就是澄江的寒武纪生物大爆发,这个到目前为止好像没有什么很好的解释,其次进化论的理论里面充满了假设和猜想。比如我一直不太理解的一个问题就是,雌雄异体的生物要进化,那么就需要同时有雌的和雄的同时发生变异或进化,但在同一个种群中发生这样的事情的几率是不是太小了?如果是发生在不同的种群中,怎么保证他们能见面?也许我这个问题比较可笑但直到现在也没有找到一个能令我信服的答案。

    这里有一个连接是对进化论的质疑,可能他的说法比我更专业吧,供参考。 外链出处

    其次是关于所谓的圣经包括新约和旧约是不是只针对犹太人的,你给出的摘录我也看了,不过我想如果你要质疑某一个事物最好自己对这个事物有一个认识。旧约圣经是希伯来文字写成,是上帝跟犹太人立的约,但这里面的十诫并不是只针对犹太人,至于你说的为什么上帝会杀戮,看起来很残忍,这些我已经在旧约和新约当中写过过一些我自己的理解,在新兵营的一个帖子当中给另外一个河友的回复当中也有一些论述供你参考。新约是用希腊文写成的,是上帝和全人类立的新约是用耶稣的血所立的。在新约圣经的约翰福音三章16节说“神爱世人,甚至将他的独生子赐给他们,叫一切信他的,不至灭亡,反得永生。”我们很清楚的看到这个“一切信他的”并没有任何的限定并没有说是一切信他的犹太人,那么怎么会得出来只是关于犹太人的呢?其次关于圣经中的邻舍的定义,这个邻舍到底是只包括犹太人还是所有的人,圣经也有明确的记载,路加福音10章:29 那人要显明自己有理,就对耶稣说,谁是我的邻舍呢?

    30 耶稣回答说,有一个人从耶路撒冷下耶利哥去,落在强盗手中,他们剥去他的衣裳,把他打个半死,就丢下他走了。

    31 偶然有一个祭司,从这条路下来。看见他就从那边过去了。

    32 又有一个利未人,来到这地方,看见他,也照样从那边过去了。

    33 惟有一个撒玛利亚人,行路来到那里。看见他就动了慈心,

    34 上前用油和酒倒在他的伤处,包裹好了,扶他骑上自己的牲口,带到店里去照应他。

    35 第二天拿出二钱银子来,交给店主说,你且照应他。此外所费用的,我回来必还你。

    36 你想这三个人,那一个是落在强盗手中的邻舍呢?

    37 他说,是怜悯他的。耶稣说,你去照样行吧。

    说道这里应该很明白了,所以我不知道为什么Richard Dawkins会得出邻舍只是指犹太人的结论?

    反对基督教,还是痛恨基督教在某种程度上讲都不要紧,要紧的是要有自己的理解,不是断章取义的曲解也不是人云亦云的盲从。信仰是思辨的,绝不是盲从。

    谢谢!

    • 家园 又见到了试图用神学理论去干涉科学理论的现象

      不错,进化论的理论里面充满了假设和猜想,但这正是科学的本质特征,科学从来没像神学那样,说自己是不可证伪的。事实上,达尔文的著作里本身就存在着不少缺陷和错误,他的某些观点未必就符合事实。但他的这些错误与缺陷,却决不能用来证明神创论就是正确的。

      您要信基督以及神创论,那是您个人的信仰自由,自己信着就行了,就不必在日常生活中试图以自己的知识层次去批驳进化论了,更不必试图在批驳进化论的同时附带宣传神创论。

      进化论可不是神创论,会被您引用的那篇网文那么简单的就批倒,它是被从教士到学者,反复批驳了无数次,质疑了无数次,从而在不断的补充证据和完善理论中逐渐发展成熟的,然而这种不断的完善自身的过程,就是它从假说成为科学理论的过程,也是科学之所以能成为科学的精髓。

      本来我一直在想,神学与科学最好是互不相干,各管各的,你信你的上帝,我以科学的世界观来指导自己的行为。但现在看来似乎这个想法太幼稚,现实生活中步步进逼过来的,正是宗教势力,科学一旦不主动去占领人们的思想阵地,宗教就会反过来要试图把科学赶出去。

      不好意思,才发现跟的竟然是个挖坟贴……

    • 家园 进化论缺陷是明确的,但神创论当作自己的武器就可笑了

      寒武纪大爆炸,进化论没有给出可以说服人的解释。神创论有些人,就觉得捡到了宝,因为上帝创造万物,可以联系起来:就是在寒武纪造的么。

      那么白垩纪那事,进化论还是莫衷一是不知所以,上帝干了什么?

    • 家园 关于创世纪的一些疑问

      关于创世纪(the book of genesis)

      1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

      1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

      1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

      1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

      上帝创造了光,白天和黑夜,但是它还没有创造发光的物体-太阳!没有太阳,怎么有白天黑夜?

      1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

      1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

      1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

      1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

      1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

      1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

      上帝并没有直接创造植物,它说“Let the earth bring forth grass”。看来上帝也不是那么反对进化论。

      1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

      1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

      1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

      "Signs"? Zodiac? 看来上帝已经知道生肖符号,所以预先把星球放在合适的位置。

      1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

      1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

      白天的光,和晚上的光?是不是很可笑。天上的宇航员又是看到什么光?那里可没有白天黑夜。

      如果所有星球都是用来给球创造光的,那为什么只有极少的星球可以被看见?人类凭肉眼只可以看到几千个星星,想一下我们银河系就有一千亿个!

      1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

      1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

      1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

      从水里出生物?这怎么看起来像进化论。

      先就这些吧

    • 家园 bible里和现代道德观不和的经文

      回复马甲兄的

      麻烦您把原文给出来,然后我会试着谈谈我的看法和理解。

      这样的经文,在圣经里不是一处两处。我并不是说基督徒都是这样,相反,我相信决大多数人有很好的道德。那么他们的道德显然不是全部从圣经里得到的,而他们读圣经,也会有选择性的接受,而忽略掉这些不符合他们道德观的经文(当然也可能他们从来没有读过圣经的这些经文),也就是你所说的“断章取义”。不是吗?

      但是你可以对这些经文作出符合现代道德观的解释,哪我就洗耳聆听。

      这些经文是King James版本的经文。可以在这个网站上对证http://bible.cc/。

      God demands we kill everone who do not believe in God

      First Commandaments - You shalt have no other Gods before me.

      Deuteronmoy 17:2-7

      If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

      And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

      And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

      Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

      At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

      The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

      God Demands that we kill everyone who works on Sabbath day

      Exodus 35:2 - Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

      God demand we kill disobedient teenagers

      Deuteronomy 21:18-21

      If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

      Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

      And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

      And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

      God demands the death of homosexuals

      Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      God demands that we kill girls who are not virgin when they marry.

      Deuteronomy 22:13-21

      If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

      And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

      Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

      And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

      And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

      And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

      And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

      But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

      Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

      God supports slavery

      Exodus 21:20-21

      And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

      Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

      Colossians 3:22-24

      Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

      And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

      Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

      Ephesians 6:5 - Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

      1 peter 2:18 - Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

      And so on ....

    • 家园 我来回答一下你提供的链接中的一个质疑进化论的问题

      原文在 http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/18947201.html?fr=qrl3

      这理论的第一个缺陷是以人的臆测为前提

      首先为生命的起源定下一条公式,这就无机物→简单化合物→复杂化合物→高分子的有机化合物→高分子的蛋白质→生命,接着为这一公式的演变过程寻找理化条件,需要什么条件就出现什么条件。只是在有机物向蛋白质过渡时,确实难以找到合适的条件了,于是便以一系列矛盾斗争,一分为二概括之。更困难的事情是高分子的蛋白质怎么能产生新陈代谢呢?没有别的具体办法,便以化学演变,内外分化一言了之。

      我们知道,蛋白质若要形成一个生命的细胞,要有二千多种不同的酶参加,而且相互之间的联接不能有丝毫的差错,其概率之小相当于把一个标有1-6点的骰子连掷50亿次,每次都必须是六点。也好比一场巨风刮过一个垃圾堆,自然出现一架波音747飞机一样。这有可能吗?

      这里面有一个明显的诡辩,如果作者本人没有学过生物学相关的课程,那么还可以原谅,如果学过了,那就是有意的诡辩。

      谁都知道,一场巨风刮过一个垃圾堆不可能出现一架波音747,作者的诡辩之处在于,把需要亿万年累积下来的可以遗传的变异,寄托在一次碰运气的丢骰子上面。须知,生物的变异一般是可以遗传的,也就是说有益的变异是可以累积的(有害的变异也会发生,但是因为导致死亡而无法遗传下去)。生物通过亿万年地累积有益的变异,可以把自己从简单生命进化到很高的程度。

      而丢骰子是独立事件,学过统计学的知道,上一次丢骰子的结果和下一次丢骰子的结果没有因果关系,这称作独立事件。试想,如果上次丢骰子会影响到下次丢骰子的结果,还怎么赌博啊?

    • 家园 加入雌雄并非雌雄而是1和2,也许就好理解了。

      1和2完全不同,同时进化。有一天,1和2融合了。于是有了雌雄。呵呵。

    • 家园 问一个问题,关于叫一切信他的,不至灭亡,反得永生

      在新约圣经的约翰福音三章16节说“神爱世人,甚至将他的独生子赐给他们,叫一切信他的,不至灭亡,反得永生。”我们很清楚的看到这个“一切信他的”并没有任何的限定并没有说是一切信他的犹太人,那么怎么会得出来只是关于犹太人的呢?其次关于圣经中的邻舍的定义,这个邻舍到底是只包括犹太人还是所有的人,圣经也有明确的记载,路加福音10章:29 那人要显明自己有理,就对耶稣说,谁是我的邻舍呢?

      可是,在启示录中似乎说只有十四万四千人可以得救啊?其余也信神的人是否就没有机会永生了呢?

      • 家园 12★1200

        这个我听说是以色列人有12个分支,每个分支1200人就是十四万四千人。这可有出处?

      • 家园 有这样一个普遍现像

        就是任何宗教,都有一个原始——发展——流传——深化的过程,这个宗教的理论与教义也在这个过程中不断严密、丰富。

        但绝大多数宗教,所信仰的神和基本经典,一般在发展阶段就确立,以后不会修改。这是由信仰的神圣性和不可置疑性决定的。

        任何一本书,特别是人类社会早期的著作,都有大量的漏洞。

        俺个人认为,没有必要以普世逻辑和研究方法,去辩诘宗教教义。否则,耶稣会不会是处女所生,释迦牟尼会不会转世,穆罕默德有没有神性,是经不起生物学置疑的。

        再小声说一句:圣经里有与佛经相似的部分,而古兰经向圣经模仿的部分几乎达到三分之一。教徒们是不会允许用普通的比较文学研究方法搞他们的经典的。

        • 家园 我也小声说

          听说圣经抄袭了不少其他宗教的神话故事,比如说埃及的神是太阳神。

          Sun of God -> Son of God

          Sunday??

          基督教耶稣的画像很多都在“太阳”的光环下

          另外死后三天复活据说在很多其他宗教故事中出现。

          • 家园 我觉得这是文化交融的结果

            圣经有来自佛教《百喻经》的内容,已有定论。《古兰经》有三分之一的内容与圣经故事有关。应该说,这属于不同文化体系的交叉、渗透、融合与相互影响。

            古埃及文明和古巴比伦文明是人类最早的文化体系,诞生在耶路撒冷的基督教含有上述文明的成份,再正常不过。

            此外,基督教的起源还与印度教有一定关系。密特拉教是罗马帝国时期的秘传宗教之一。密特拉原为上古印度——伊朗的神灵之一,二千年前已经产生,见印度教经典《犁俱吠陀》。这一神灵公元前一百年左右传入罗马,形成宗教。罗马帝国基督教化后,这一宗教慢慢消失。考古发现的该教遗迹特别出是碑铭,表明该教故事、教义、议轨和制度,不少与后来的基督教极其相似。相当一部人认为,该教至少对早期基督教的形成深有影响。

            BTW:人类一些史前传说,也有共同性。诺亚方舟这样的大洪水故事,在多个文明体系中存在。我少年时看过一本汉民族神话故事,其中雷公诞生,就是在洪水泛滥之时。这里面反映的到底是什么,用文化交融肯定解释不了,其破解要待将来了。

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