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主题:【原创】宇宙学的终结 -- 苏萸

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家园 天文科普不宜涉及过于前沿的东西

比如宇宙加速膨胀超过光速等,这些应在较专门论坛讨论,待有较统一结论再来这里科普不迟.

否则,什么观点都来这里,难保不招惹民科进入.民科争论能让真正的专家都头昏脑涨不胜其烦的.

请楼主去天文论坛,是感觉不太象普通天文爱好者了.若是高深的天文理论或理论物理专家,更无须在这里"建功立业"了.

家园 呵呵欢迎转载
家园 小弟我一直很低调啊 :)

可能淳朴的人们不愿相信悲观的结局吧。。

家园 楼主观点难以认同,还请自行前往讨论

已经对楼主漠视天文的一些基础概念有所惊异.

动问一句,当宇宙的氢燃烧罄尽,氦聚变大概是什么情形(主序星怎样形成,寿命多少)?

描述的最终形成单个星系中通常有多少黑洞,多少吸积盘,怎样形成喷流?星光之外的光源还有哪些?

为什么不是形成一个最终黑洞,而是一个星系?

不过,楼主不一定答复,更不一定在此答复.您的斤两到专门的天文论坛去称一称应无不妥.

家园 那讨论就请在这里打住吧。

虽然没有冻结帖子讨论的工具,但大家就默认是冻结了。可好?

家园 宇宙膨胀‘超光速’不是民科,也不是争议话题,而是事实

楼上不妨先充实一下自己的天文学知识。

所谓宇宙膨胀‘超光速’,可以说是,也可以说不是,更保守的说---it depends。这不是因为学界对宇宙膨胀速度有争议,而是因为这句话没有包含足够清晰的物理学定义,可以作出模棱两可的理解,从而得出不同的答案。这不是错误,而是不够严谨。

楼主的介绍源自Scientific American的科普文章‘The End of Cosmology?’,内容基本忠于原文,最大的偏差恐怕是标题中少了个问号。

原文可以在此全文阅读:

外链出处

如果你觉得我跟很多民科一样,都是不专业的,半懂不懂的,那倒也没错。可是这些结论并不来自于我。

以下科普资料分别来自NASA官方网站、UCLA天文系、Cornell天文系,请注意,这些都是科普问答而不是学术前沿的猜想。每段引言都有红字,这属于不同天文学家的不同说法,第一段与其他段落的红字说法似乎截然相反,但其实它们并没有冲突:

外链出处

The Universe did not expand faster than light. The Universe was big enough 12 billion years ago that the light from some distant objects is only getting to us now. That doesn't mean that the Universe was more than 12 billion light years wide 12 billion years ago. Because we're moving away from the object, the light has had to catch up to us.

Dr. Eric Christian

To imagine this situation think of the Universe as of a gigantic - maybe even infinitely large - dough of raisin bread. Scale your imagination down to a finite piece of dough, where you are sitting on a raisin in its center. The outer edge of the dough is equivalent to the edge of the "observable universe", from where we see the cosmic microwave background radiation. You have put a lot of yeast into your raisin bread, and you have set up microwave transmitters all around on the outer edge, blasting inward. Imagine that in reaction to this heating the dough rises at such a furious rate that the outer edge recedes from the center at almost the speed of light. Although the microwave transmitters were only at a relatively short distance at the beginning of this "gedankenexperiment" (thought experiment), the microwaves have to cross a much larger (continually growing) distance because of the ongoing expansion.

I would like to add a cautionary note, in case you might be wondering. Don't get confused! This expansion does not violate Einstein's theory of relativity, even though the imaginary dough of the even larger Universe, which we can't see beyond that edge, appears to recede at speeds larger than the speed of light. The dough represents space itself, and in our expanding Universe space itself is expanding, carrying the galaxies (represented by the raisins) along on a ride. Einstein's limit to the speed of light applies only to motion through space, and not to expansion of space itself.

Dr. Eberhard Moebius

外链出处

Can objects move away from us faster than the speed of light?

Again, this is a question that depends on which of the many distance definitions one uses. However, if we assume that the distance of an object at time t is the distance from our position at time t to the object's position at time t measured by a set of observers moving with the expansion of the Universe, and all making their observations when they see the Universe as having age t, then the velocity (change in D per change in t) can definitely be larger than the speed of light. This is not a contradiction of special relativity because this distance is not the same as the spatial distance used in SR, and the age of the Universe is not the same as the time used in SR. In the special case of the empty Universe, where one can show the model in both special relativistic and cosmological coordinates, the velocity defined by change in cosmological distance per unit cosmic time is given by v = c ln(1+z), where z is the redshift, which clearly goes to infinity as the redshift goes to infinity, and is larger than c for z > 1.718. For the critical density Universe, this velocity is given by v = 2c[1-(1+z)-0.5] which is larger than c for z > 3 .

For the concordance model based on CMB data and the acceleration of the expansion measured using supernovae, a flat Universe with OmegaM = 0.27, the velocity is greater than c for z > 1.407.

Dr. Edward L. Wright

外链出处

Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be heard from again.

Dr. Dave Rothstein

What happens to a substance if its speed is more than the speed of light?

We do not know what happens to a substance if it moves faster than the speed of light for the very simple reason that it can never move faster than the speed of light. The speed of light poses a fundamental limit to the speed that an object can take, relative to objects nearby it. In fact, no object with any finite rest mass can move at the speed of light. That is why all the particles that move at the speed of light (e.g. photons) have zero rest mass. As a particle with mass approaches the speed of light, its energy increases and becomes infinite at the speed of light, which is the reason why it can never be accelerated to reach that speed. This has actually been verified by experiments, and it has been shown that nothing moves faster than the speed of light.

However, the above discussion only applies to objects on small scales in the universe -- for example, if you take a baseball or a planet or a star or a galaxy and try to accelerate these objects to the speed of light relative to objects nearby them, it is impossible to do. However, there is nothing which prevents objects that are separated by huge distances from moving relative to each other faster than the speed of light. Over these large distances, the effects of the universe's expansion become important, and the above discussion no longer applies.

Dr. Jagadheep D. Pandian

家园 你看我这个胡猜怎样:

在膨胀的宇宙中,A星和B星向相反方向运动,假设M为AB间中点位置,且保持不变(理论上)。A相对于M的速度为2/3光速,B相对于M也是2/3光速,那么A相对于B就是4/3光速,超过光速了,这是否作为宇宙以超光速膨胀的一个直觉解释?

纯属胡猜。

家园 嘿嘿,这是西西河,算好的了。要是别的地方什么教徒都会上来训人。
家园 首先,速度相加不能用你的方法

而得用相对论的速度变换公式,你就会发现A相对B的速度还是小于光速。

其次,即使A相对B超过光速,也不能推出宇宙以超光速膨胀。只要哈勃定律成立,可见宇宙足够大,即使宇宙膨胀的慢,也会有很远处的天体相对我们超光速的离去。

最后,“宇宙以超光速膨胀”是指宇宙的边界相对观察者来说向外扩张的速度,而不特指宇宙中某两点的相对速度。

家园 有些无益的讨论确实没有必要了:)

不知版主是否得拿出立场,不能一棒子全打死啊。。

家园 呵呵卷心菜做了很多功课啊

现在想来,所有的争端原来在于我没有说清楚“一家之言”啊。。

家园 说明一下:

一,我对你们讨论的领域知之不深,皮毛的毛尖。所以我也给不出什么comment。

二,虽然我上面发个帖,说要冻结讨论,但仍然支持后来卷心菜的帖子和讨论方法。

三,提出冻结的想法是因为讨论出现意气之争的味道,还不如不说下去。如果有实质性的讨论,当然继续。

另外,能否请考虑一下,写一个宇宙学发展的来龙去脉系列?你牵头,其他人来讨论补充。萨佛说的“天文科普不宜涉及过于前沿的东西”有一定道理。如果能在河里把这些背景介绍清楚,那么“宇宙学的终结”就更显得水到渠成些吧。

家园 我是放弃理解这事了 :-)

大学物理也学过相对论,当时就没理解。

相信你说的符合主流理论物理。但是要想让外行明白字数还是太少,这也许是为什么这里有人挑战你的说法。

家园 谢谢!花.虽然由于英文水平限制,还要多花时间读

专家大致都是说"看起来"超光速并不等于宇宙膨胀确实超过了光速.

我对楼主文章的怀疑,是那句"宇宙膨胀远远超过了光速".专家们的意思不会是膨胀超过光速吧?

家园 大致学了科学美国人2008-3那文章.感觉属哲学讨论

文章挺长.网页5页,打印A4纸估计要更多点.

那文章几处说,未来宇宙膨胀之后,新的文明由他们自己的太阳系的引力发现广义相对论,但会如何如何......

基本是探讨宇宙膨胀使得遥远部分对"我们的"星系群的速度超过光速会发生什么,如不再可见等.

似乎不是从科学角度谈的.

如果从科学角度看,我们发现宇宙膨胀是通过红移,是否有红移达到超短波的观测报告,就能判断遥远天体是否已经出现相当接近光速的情况.当然若能有办法发现移动到长波的就更有说服力.因为有超过光速的对象,也就应该有接近光速的对象.更低频率的电磁波如何接收和判读需要等待技术开发的相应成果.

另外,大爆炸的余辉随宇宙膨胀的频谱变化和强度变化,若遥远空间离开我们的速度接近以至达到和超过光速,那部分空间的大爆炸余辉传来的频谱该如何,也在讨论范围吧?

还有中微子的行为应显示什么状态,遥远空间的噶玛射线暴会否在我们这里红移成可见光新星或超新星样.许多要观测判断的事物需要与这所谓"科学事实"相呼应.

PS:卷心菜河友给的几个链接,水平所限没有全看懂,但是也感觉到是在描述场景,并没有介绍什么相关的科学证据.

另外昨天看到本版块年初有河友发的天文科普系列帖,其中提到了"2000年哈勃望远镜观测到260亿光年外天体"的说法,大惊,忙用谷歌和NASA自己网站的搜索工具搜了"26 billion light-years"条目,结果基本无所获.特别是NASA自己居然没有此对应结果.若作者看了本帖,还请修正为妥.或者删除相应帖子内容.所谓"惊世骇俗的结论需要有惊世骇俗的证据支持",8年那消息都没有震动天文界,也没有后续的报道,其真实性是否该核计核计呢?

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