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主题:买车杀价流水仗 -- 煮酒正熟

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家园 买车杀价流水仗

八月底买了辆 08款的 Nissan Altima (下称 尼桑奥提马),中间多有挫折。尊老萝卜兄钧旨,把当时的流水帐拿出来,博大家一笑。

尼桑奥提马是领导看中的。俺原本就对奥提马兴趣一般,而且想着还没到最佳出手时机 (当时是8月下旬,8月底他们的09款到位,所以9月10-20日之间大概是最佳时机),所以开始没怎么帮领导。领导有点生气,后果想党地严重。后来领导发现自己公司可以从尼桑滴乐那儿拿到 hassle-free 的优惠价,加之那两天她的旧车出了点小毛病(每天前两下煞车会有嘎嘎的声音),她就迫不及待仓促出战了,结果人家一看:这位也太好忽悠了,放过这么好忽悠的对不起人民对不起党啊,所以就一通猛忽悠,不仅价格一般,而且还多卖了两个 programs (没什么用,根本就不值)。签约时我也在场,因为不喜欢这个 deal,,加之对方三个家伙都巨能砍,俺以一敌三,又操鸟语,知道正面交锋讨不到便宜,所以就一直没说话。照理说俺们这个亏是吃定了。谁知对方可能是太得意忘形了,签约时连个明细表都没出。(就是这个小漏招,最终让他们怎么吃进去的又怎么给吐了出来...)

话说当晚价格谈定之后,因为还有其他手续未结,而且他们的车子也要做最后清洁,我们无法当天把车开走,只是牵了合同、交了一千刀的订金。合同上明文规定:无论何种原因,订金概不退还。

俺们一家三口回到家后,俺是越琢磨越脚着不对头。花俩小时做了做功课,又打电话问了俩朋友,决定以缺失明细表为由,亲自出马杀价。杀价方式避开了对我们老中最不利的当面交涉,而采取电邮 + 电话方式,电邮是重拳,电话就是催促,而且电话上遇到对方死缠滥打 一贯以 "Sorry I'm running for a meeting and have to hang off. Please read my email and reply to me via email." 轻松打发掉。

下面 按照时间顺序,把俺与对方杀价的电邮原文抄录下来。俺英文非常麻麻,而且大多是上班时候发的,仓促之间不及润色,兄弟们别笑话。

第一封先发给了那个 sales. 那位比较弱,见势不妙马上把球踢给了他的上司 --- Internet Sales Manager, Chelsey. 下面是我给 切尔西的第一封电邮:

Good Morning Chelsey,

My wife and I went to your dealership and signed the contract on Monday, Auguest 25, for a 2008 Altima 2.5S CVT. The contract is based on a VPP Sale Price of $20,303. Now we would like to have a detailed breakdown of this VPP sale price by all cost components. Please provide us this information at your earliest convenience.

Thank you,

-- Lao Jiu

下面是她的回复:

Hi Lao Jiu:

It's nice to hear from you. Here is how your VPP number is derived:

Vehicle Invoice Amount.....$19,778

VPP Discount 2.87%............-567.63

Subtotal: VPP Net Price...................$19,210.37

Dealer delivery fee..........................+480.26

Destination and handling fee (from invoice)...+625

August rebate.................................-1,250

Participants purchase price.......$19,065.63

MSRP..............................$21,825

Total Discount off MSRP...........$2,259.37

I hope this helps. When your wife initially inquired, we did not have her VPP claim number to run through our system so my manager gave an estimate. That estimate was $20,303. As you can see in reviewing your purchase order, our estimate was off by $12 (purchase price $19,065+ $1,250 rebate= $20,315). I hope this clarifies things a bit. The August incentives expire on the 31st so we want to make sure we're getting everything wrapped up.

Chelsey

各位可能看得一头雾水,稍微解释一下:那个VPP是领导所在公司才能享受到的所谓 hassle-free 优惠价;另外可以注意,他们的成交价比给我们的最终报价高了12刀。这个Chelsey 八成是听销售代表说这个煮酒不好对付,所以“主动交待”这个“犯罪情节”并做了解释。

另外,我们一直都在拿 Edmunds.com 上面给出的最低参考价(据说比全国平均价低350刀) 进行比较,那上面的 Invoice 价格 再减掉 1250 的 rebate,是 19108刀, 尼桑 Dealer 给我们的这个价格是 19065.63刀,两者基本是可比的。从这里可以看出,我们的成交价不算差。

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/nissan/altima/100920618/optionsresults.html?action=2

这里真正引起我注意的是这两个项目:Dealer delivery fee (480刀) 和 Destination and handling fee (from invoice) (625刀)。实际上还有一项 Dealer Conveyance Fee 的费用 (330刀)。这三个项目从名字上来看表示的意思都差不多。查Edmunds.com,发现上面只有一项 Destination Charge (695刀)。俺接此电邮时的感觉是,这个600多刀的 Destination fee or charge 是正当的、所以是无可避免的,但对那个

Dealer delivery fee 和 不在此电邮上的 Dealer Conveyance Fee 比较怀疑,觉得既然尼桑已经把车发送到 Dealer 处了(所以才会收取那个600多刀的 Destination charge),Dealer 还要多收两道费,有巧立名目之嫌。所以决定先做一番火力侦查。而且,既往经验告诉我,不要一次把底牌出尽。所以我决定先不理会 dealer conveyance fee, 而是问 destination and handling fee 与 dealer delivery fee.

于是我回了她下面这个电邮:

Chelsey,

Thank you for providing the VPP price breakdown info. We did see that $12 variance between the VPP quote and the amount on the contract. Thank you for the clarification.

Chelsey, could you let us know the difference between 'Dealer delivery fee' and 'Destination and handling fee (from invoice)'?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks,

-- Lao Jiu

Chelsey 的回复是:

Lao Jiu:

The destination and handling fee is from Nissan and is included into the invoice price when it is delivered to dealerships. The dealer delivery fee is enacted as part of the VPP program.

俺的回复:

Chelsey

We are fine with this fee, but are having a difficult time in understanding the 'dealer delivery fee'. The car has already been delivered to your premise, how come another deliver fee be incurred?

We think there's something wrong with the price. Could you double check the price for us?

Thank you,

- Lao Jiu

Chelsey 可能觉得不易应对,于是上报给她的 Supervisor, Phil. 此后都是 Phil 与我电邮往来。 下面是 Phil 的回信:

Chelsey had forwarded me an email from you in regards to your VPP purchase. I am the VPP Coordinating Manager for Xxxxxx Nissan.

You seem to have a correct break down of the Manufacturers Destination charge. It is a National average of the delivery cost associated to getting the vehicles transported from production to the dealership distribution network. The VPP form breaks down true dealer cost. The dealer delivery fee is how we (Xxxxxx Nissan) get paid for a VPP purchase. Without that fee, we would be purchasing a product from our manufacturer and selling it to you at a loss.

原来如此!感情这个 dealer delivery fee 是 Dealer 要赚的差价或毛利呀!这帮家伙,要赚钱就明说嘛,非整出这么个莫名其妙的名目来。

卖一辆车赚 480刀,如果没有其他隐藏利润,照说实在不算多 (只有2.5%)。

这个先放在一边,现在开始追问那个 dealer conveyance fee:

Hi Phil and Chelsey,

Thank you for your explanation. If I'm not misunderstanding, this Dealer Delivery Fee has little to do with dealer delivery service, but it's how you get paid. Then what is that $329 Dealer Conveyance Fee?

Please reply at your earliest convenience.

-- Lao Jiu

这里俺开始小小地不厚道了一把,注意那句 "this Dealer Delivery Fee has little to do with dealer deliver service, but it's how you get paid." 这句明摆着就是要让你难受恶心。这也算是心理战吧,就是在实质性接触之前,先让你处于下风。

下面是 Phil 的回信:

The dealer delivery fee on your VPP contract is the profit to the store (dealer).

A dealer Conveyance fee is fee charged by the dealership for processing any contract done thru the store.

A lot of people question this fee without realizing that there are a lot of costs associated with delivering a vehicle these days.

Example:

It costs us $65 in fees just to complete a registration online (NOT the DMV charge you see on your order)

Nissan pays for a wash of a vehicle, not a detail and wax.... etc.

The dealer conveyance fee is charged to every transaction a dealership completes.

Let me know if I can answer any other questions for you.

-- Phil

上面这封电邮可以显示这个 Phil 的经验和技巧,话说得滴水不漏而且不卑不亢,细节方面一个普通消费者基本上无法去核实。至此,我的攻击没有收到预期效果 --- 至少从表面上来看如此。

但任何事都要积极地来看。我觉得虽然先期攻击不果,但仍给对方较大压力,特别是心理上的。既然正面战场没有进展,那么就改打游击战吧。既然你拿出我无法核实的信息,那么我也还给你一个你无法核实的信息:

Hi Phil and Chelsey,

To be honest with you, a friend of ours received a non-VPP quote from another Nissan dealer for the same model. Their non-VPP pre-tax price is lower than your VPP pre-tax price.

In addition, we believe every consumer has the right to have full disclosure of product information so he/she can make a fully informed purchase decision. Unfortunately, throughout the whole process we didn't get a full disclosure of information, including a full list of the equipped features of the vehicle.

We would like to continue to work with you, as both sides already invested significant amount of time and energy. But we want to make sure that we're not paying a higher amount than the current fair market price.

We would like to, with your support and cooperation, work out a better price, so we can finally close this deal.

Please reply at your earliest convenience.

-- Lao Jiu

解释一下:上面的第一段,游击战打响了!我就一口咬死我有个更低价,你怎么核实?当然了,俺事先的确有从另外两个尼桑 dealer 那里拿了报价,人家第一次报价就只比这家高几十刀,如果用心砍砍,下来200刀并非不可能。

第二段则抢占道义制高点,强调自己作为一个消费者 在 进行购买决定时,应该享有足够的知情权,但对方自始至终都没有提供消费者所要求的全部相关信息。

注意:这是俺第一次从道义角度进行攻击,而且有意没有给出任何细节证据,目的就是等对方急躁冒进,那样就入我毂中矣... (具体请看下文)

第三段是强调要继续与对方履行这个购买合同,但希望在合理价位基础上来履行合同。如果说第一和第二段是大棒的话,第三段就是跟胡萝卜。

第四段紧接第三段,提出具体要求 --- 我们希望在你们的全力合作下,以更优价位 完成这个购买合同。

果不其然,Phil 见信后沉不住气了,特别是对置他于道义低位比较恼火,下面是他的回复:

土鳖抗

元宝推荐:东湖珞珈, 通宝推:途人,

本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
家园 抛砖引来玉。花等。
家园 hua

恭喜:你意外获得【通宝】一枚

谢谢:作者意外获得【通宝】一枚

鲜花已经成功送出。

此次送花为【有效送花赞扬,涨乐善、声望】

家园 买车杀价流水仗 (续)

果不其然,Phil 见信后沉不住气了,特别是对置他于道义低位比较恼火,下面是他的回复:

Lao Jiu:

After reading your last email I pulled Chelsey into my office to inquire about her thoroughness with your quotes. She had produced multiple pages of email correspondence in regards to your quote.

Pages of vehicle information sent multiple times, breakdown of the VPP program, including the original mention of the program at all, cost breakdowns, breakdowns of all fees and taxes, and the overview of how the VPP process works.

VPP was designed to offer employees of Nissan's business affiliates a no hassle, no haggle way to purchase vehicles below cost.

VPP does not allow the dealer to mark up or add any unauthorized fees to the purchase and informs you of all current programs, dealer, or consumer.

We have delivered well over 200 VPP vehicles YTD including the President of Nissan of North Americas brother.

If there is any specific area in which you need more information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Phil

这一大段,除了吹他们那个VPP怎么好 (甚至尼桑北美总裁的兄弟都是按这个价买的车),就是反复强调他们如何给我们提供了全面的相关信息,口气想党地自信,不容质疑;而且看起来情绪也比较激越。说实话俺当时看了以后不禁抚掌大乐,小样儿八你,到底入俺毂中矣!

下面是俺的回复:

Phil,

Prior to and ON our signing the contract on Monday 8/25, we NEVER received a full list of standard features and opted features. We believe this list of features is an integral part to the contract. But now it is missing. It's like you signed a contract just for a dollar amount, but you had no idea what exactly were included in this dollar amount. We only received a list of the features on 8/26, and found three out of the four features are non-typically equipped features (floor mats, an emergency aid package, and aluminum kick).

Let's be fair - I don't think the sales rep should be blamed for not going through all the features on the car. It’s just not realistic. But a full list of features SHOULD be provided prior to or at least on the signing of the purchase contract, REGARDLESS whether the sales rep has already gone through the features with customer in test drive.

On signing the contract, dealership representatives didn't provide us a full list of features, which we consider the core part of the deal, but did try to sell us an anti-theft and a protection program, which are peripherals to the deal. Now if you were in our position, after realizing all these, what would be your feelings and reaction?

Then a couple days later, a friend of ours received a non-VPP price from another Nissan dealer for 2008 Altima 2.5S CVT. We compared your pre-tax pre-fees pre-rebate VPP price against their pre-tax pre-fees pre-rebate (also $1250) non-VPP price, and we found their price is several hundred dollars lower than yours. We then started to ask ourselves: is this VPP price really a more favorable price than non-VPP? Why are we being punished, in stead of rewarded, by working with XXX (my wife's company)? Why can't we just ask for a non-VPP price and start to work the deal all over again?

Phil, if you were in our position, after going through and thinking about all these, what would be your feelings and reaction??

There are couple of other factors: we shopped around and collected information on financing cost and trade-in appraisal (we have a 99 Corolla) and assumed that your financing cost and appraisal would be comparable to others. But then on signing the contract we found out that your financing cost is way higher than the others (4.9% Vs 1.9%), and your appraisal is substantially lower than others ($1000 Vs $2200). As such we were unable to trade our car to you, and this increased the plate fee by $70. To be fair, these are NOT your responsibilities, but combined with the factors mentioned in above, these ‘SURPRISES’ did build into our emotions...

Sorry for writing this lengthy message, but we do want you to fully understand our position and options. Please allow us to be very precise: we prefer to continuing to work with you to finalize the deal, but we want a better price.

Please reply at your earliest convenience.

Thank you,

家园 买个车真麻烦啊

换成是我,两万块的东西,差个200块肯定就忽略了。

是不是我这样的不适合自己开公司?

家园 not only $200, but

about $1100, with the tax included...

家园 这个“仗”字用得好。买车砍价就是跟黑心车行打仗!
家园 支持砍价,虽说楼主不缺这个钱,砍下来捐也好
家园 宝谢好文,很有参考意义呐

恭喜:你意外获得【通宝】一枚

谢谢:作者意外获得【通宝】一枚

鲜花已经成功送出。

此次送花为【有效送花赞扬,涨乐善、声望】

家园 花DETAILS!

一般前期谈价格的时候总是无法COVER全部DETAILS,尤其是最后那些PROGRAM。所以签合同的时候往往一看,啊?怎么多出那么些钱来?看合同DETAILS绝对是自我保护的必要手段。

不过我觉得买新车本身是个高兴的事情,所以一般前期砍到合适的心理价位以后,最后的PROGRAM往往都看着买点。比如那个MAXIMA,就买了一个SURFACE PROTECTION。虽然四五百块钱,也知道用不太上,可是家里两孩子,哪天再拿着砖块在车上上画画的时候就整个回来了(发生过,我女儿在PILOT上画了一个太阳三朵花)。

其实也难免,如果前头杀太狠了,DEALER愿意给了,肯定也要从其他地方找回来。只要不被杀猪,一个两三万的车我觉得让人挣三五百不冤枉,挣得明白就行。

家园 看到这一段,想象着老酒写这一段email时,肯定是

"我得意地笑,我得意地笑“, 对方要是知道老酒的工作,估计肯定不会跟老酒磨这么半天牙,一定会说,你说个数,只要兄弟不赔本,这车就卖你了。另外再送礼品若干。

家园 很有用的经验哈

老酒一开始没要明细表现在看来是个阴谋啊,挖个坑等DEALER往下跳…… 

邮件俺都存下来鸟,留作以后参考之用。^o^

家园 厉害,信写的滴水不漏。 英文也好,没有半点

语法错误。 遣词用句也让人看不出来英文是你的第二语言。

家园 MM这是给俺留面子

有些地方的措辞不够规范或有效率。

基本上那个(续)里面,俺那个长长的电邮就算是俺的决战总攻了,后面基本上已经没什么悬念了。明天俺再把后面一点贴出来

家园 我不懂专业谈判语言。 不过你的英文文笔确实好

没有一般外国人写英文的生硬语气。也好过大多数美国人(他们太多语法标点错误)。也许你要求太严格。 这是随手写来的信, 不是经过反复推敲的paper, 我觉得够好了。

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